Robert Taylor Burton: Saint or Murderer?

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_Buffalo
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Re: Robert Taylor Burton: Saint or Murderer?

Post by _Buffalo »

Will Schryver wrote:It's always rather stunning how quickly a new addendum to the talking points gets adopted and then enthusiastically promulgated. This place is a finely-tuned propaganda machine.


I look forward to the nasty letters to the American Buffalo Council you'll be writing about me.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Fence Sitter
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Re: Robert Taylor Burton: Saint or Murderer?

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Bump.

I see Will has joined us again after a weak vacation. I note on the TBMB (True Blue Mormon Bored) that he has been working on this issue. Can we have an update please Will?
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_harmony
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Re: Robert Taylor Burton: Saint or Murderer?

Post by _harmony »

An update with proof he's actually been in the vault.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Will Schryver
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Re: Robert Taylor Burton: Saint or Murderer?

Post by _Will Schryver »

I posted this on the MDDB board:

Incidentally, I will also be posting, on this board, within a couple weeks, a detailed and quite devastating (I believe) rebuttal to Rollo Tomasi’s recent unwarranted allegations against General/Bishop Robert Taylor Burton, the ancestor of current Presiding Bishop H. David Burton. I have been able to acquire what appears to be the full body of contemporary eyewitness testimony concerning the Morrisite War, and therefore I am confident that I can, with relative ease, dismantle the slanderous accusations tendered against the honorable General Burton (and, by extension, to his honorable great, great grandson).

So much for “naïve believers” being unwilling to substantively engage the issues. Indeed, what I have consistently discovered is that the deeper you dig into something that Mormon critics claim to be an “open and shut case,” the more you discover it is nothing of the sort—whether that be the Morrisite War or The Meaning and Purpose of the Kirtland Egyptian Papers.

See here.


I have been, to say the least, very surprised to discover that virtually nothing published after the 19th century concerning the “Morrisite War” bothered to present a representative sampling of the abundant sworn-in-court eyewitness testimony that both contradicts the Morris and Dow accounts, but does so overwhelmingly. There is very good reason that Burton was acquitted of the charge of murdering the Bowman woman: he was clearly innocent.

Multiple independent witnesses confirm that, after the supposed surrender, Joseph Morris incited his people to resist Burton and the handful of men he took into the fort with him; that Morris and his people rushed for the previously stacked arms, and that, when Judson Stoddard and Robert Burton fired at Morris after ordering him repeatedly to halt, the Bowman woman (who just happened to be behind Morris) was killed by a shot that passed through Morris’ sleeve at the shoulder, striking the woman in the throat. (The man closest to the action was certain it was a shot from Stoddard that went through Morris' sleeve and struck the woman.)

Multiple eyewitnesses affirm that Bowman never spoke to Burton, nor did Burton curse the woman and then shoot her in the face. Reading the transcript of the testimony at Burton's murder trial, it becomes rather obvious that the entire story of Burton cursing the woman and shooting her in the face is a blatant fabrication. Rather, each witness confirms that the shot that killed Bowman was aimed at Morris, and passed through the sleeve of his clothing, inadvertently striking Bowman.

Furthermore, multiple independent eyewitnesses testify that Burton explicitly ordered that the two cannon shots on the first day were to be fired over the fort in demonstration. But the gunners’ unfamiliarity with the second artillery piece resulted in an undershot that hit outside the fort in a plowed field, then bounded into the fort, inadvertently killing two women.

There is much more, but I will reserve it for the detailed essay I am writing …
I thought myself the wiser to have viewed the evidence left of such a great demise. I followed every step. But the only thing I ever learned before the journey's end was there was nothing there to learn, only something to forget.
_Fence Sitter
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Re: Robert Taylor Burton: Saint or Murderer?

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Will Schryver wrote: Furthermore, multiple independent eyewitnesses testify that Burton explicitly ordered that the two cannon shots on the first day were to be fired over the fort in demonstration. But the gunners’ unfamiliarity with the second artillery piece resulted in an undershot that hit outside the fort in a plowed field, then bounded into the fort, inadvertently killing two women.

There is much more, but I will reserve it for the detailed essay I am writing …


Thanks for the update Will.

Shouldn’t a commander be familiar with the abilities of his soldiers and responsible for the results? If he ordered someone unfamiliar with an artillery piece to shoot in the direction of people, it seems he should be responsible for the results.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Robert Taylor Burton: Saint or Murderer?

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Hello,

Well, I suppose, if we're to believe the Mopostates on this board Mr. Morris and those two women were shot dead by an unknown assailant, from an unknown position, with no witnesses. And... And... An artillery round really wasn't fired into the fort killing two women, and injuring a third.

Nope. Mr. Burton was recorded on his deathbed telling his family members to be kind to people, so he most definitely couldn't have murdered anyone!

Of course!

V/R
Dr. Cam
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Rollo Tomasi
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Re: Robert Taylor Burton: Saint or Murderer?

Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

Will Schryver wrote:I have been, to say the least, very surprised to discover that virtually nothing published after the 19th century concerning the “Morrisite War” bothered to present a representative sampling of the abundant sworn-in-court eyewitness testimony that both contradicts the Morris and Dow accounts, but does so overwhelmingly.

Dow's was an eyewitness account.

There is very good reason that Burton was acquitted of the charge of murdering the Bowman woman: he was clearly innocent.

If Burton was "clearly innocent," why did he 'go on the lam' to avoid the initial prosecution?

Multiple independent witnesses confirm that, after the supposed surrender, Joseph Morris incited his people to resist Burton and the handful of men he took into the fort with him ...

Query: why would Morris try to get his people to resist Burton after they had already surrendered their arms? And why would the Morrisites try to get the arms they had just given up and were now under armed guard? This makes no sense, in my opinion.

(The man closest to the action was certain it was a shot from Stoddard that went through Morris' sleeve and struck the woman.)

Dow was very close to Burton, and had a different story.

Multiple eyewitnesses affirm that Bowman never spoke to Burton, nor did Burton curse the woman and then shoot her in the face.

Two women, including Bowman, were killed in the melee; I'm not sure which one supposedly cursed Burton -- I'll have to look.

Reading the transcript of the testimony at Burton's murder trial, it becomes rather obvious that the entire story of Burton cursing the woman and shooting her in the face is a blatant fabrication.

You'll recall that Joseph Morris's brother wrote in his diary that he too read the entire transcript and newspaper accounts of the trial, and he could find no reason to justify what Burton and his posse had done.

Rather, each witness confirms that the shot that killed Bowman was aimed at Morris, and passed through the sleeve of his clothing, inadvertently striking Bowman.

Burton did admit to shooting Morris twice; just because he was a bad aim and shot an unarmed woman because of it, doesn't help his cause, in my opinion.

Furthermore, multiple independent eyewitnesses testify that Burton explicitly ordered that the two cannon shots on the first day were to be fired over the fort in demonstration. But the gunners’ unfamiliarity with the second artillery piece resulted in an undershot that hit outside the fort in a plowed field, then bounded into the fort, inadvertently killing two women.

Sorry, but this just doesn't excuse what happened, in my opinion. If Burton's gunners were that bad (or their cannon that unreliable), then what the hell was Burton doing when he ordered cannon shot over a fort filled with women and children? He was in charge, and gave the order, so he is responsible for this catastrophic screw-up.

There is much more, but I will reserve it for the detailed essay I am writing …

I'm looking forward to it. But please don't just paraphrase what you read -- give actual quotes and sources where we can read the evidence for ourselves. Thanks in advance.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_sock puppet
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Re: Robert Taylor Burton: Saint or Murderer?

Post by _sock puppet »

Rollo Tomasi wrote:
Will Schryver wrote:There is very good reason that Burton was acquitted of the charge of murdering the Bowman woman: he was clearly innocent.

If Burton was "clearly innocent," why did he 'go on the lam' to avoid the initial prosecution?


It is the quintessential Mormon thing for Burton to have done. Think JSJr fleeing to Montrose IA, then thinking about it, returning to Illinois and giving himself up. For a modern example, think bunny-in-the-headlights Dallin H Oaks denying the Mormon Church's involvement in a purchase of documents through Christensen from Hoffman, and then the next day coming clean.
_moksha
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Re: Robert Taylor Burton: Saint or Murderer?

Post by _moksha »

Will Schryver wrote:

From both of the starkly delineated sides that formed following the so-called "Morrisite War."


Perhaps like the difference between the official report of what happened at My Lai, Vietnam (or Mountain Meadows) and what actually happened. Your elaboration on the offical report should be interesting.
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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Robert Taylor Burton: Saint or Murderer?

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Hello,

Waiting for Pumpkin Head's Grand Theory on Mr. Burton's Innocence in 3... 2... 1...

V/R
Dr. Cam
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
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