Summaries of most trenchant criticisms

[_Tarski]

Scattering them on a single thread still seems inefficient. Perhaps a blog or a restricted forum with a thread for each argument but where only one can post and all can view. The one allowed poster receives updated arguments from the rest of you and updates the appropriate thread.

Or what about..... ta da.....an AntiFairWiki.org? Or (less work) you could all contribute to the existing FairWiki.

Someone can do that too if they want but personally I think a single thread here would be helpful.

I think apologists should be able to resist arguing here since it is nothing but a place to lay out the critical perspective.

Go ahead and start a defensive thread later if you want.

Sock Puppet's contribution above is just fine as an example of what I wanted.

[_Yoda]

Scattering them on a single thread still seems inefficient. Perhaps a blog or a restricted forum with a thread for each argument but where only one can post and all can view. The one allowed poster receives updated arguments from the rest of you and updates the appropriate thread.

Or what about..... ta da.....an AntiFairWiki.org? Or (less work) you could all contribute to the existing FairWiki.

Someone can do that too if they want but personally I think a single thread here would be helpful.

I think apologists should be able to resist arguing here since it is nothing but a place to lay out the critical perspective.

Go ahead and start a defensive thread later if you want.

Sock Puppet's contribution above is just fine as an example of what I wanted.

I created a defense thread as well.

I think what you created is just fine, Tarski.

[_sock puppet]

The Greek Psalter

Executive Summary

In April 1843, Rev Prof Henry Caswall traveled from St Louis MO to Nauvoo IL to test the prophetic claims of JSJr. Caswall took a family heirloom, a Greek Psalter (a compilations of the Psalms from the Old Testament, written in Greek), that was believed by Caswall to be about 600 years old at the time.

Upon presenting the Greek Psalter to JSJr, JSJr asked Caswall what is was. Caswall responded that it was Greek writings. JSJr, the Mormon prophet, countered that it was not, that it was Hebrew. When Caswall started to explain to the small gathering, JSJr quietly snuck out of the back of the building in Nauvoo.

Another fine example of the problems with the truth claims of "the Prophet" JSJr.

Detailed Explanation

I will begin by giving this background for the readers of this post:

In order to test the scholarship of the prophet, I had further provided myself with an ancient Greek manuscript of the Psalter written upon parchment, and probably about six hundred years old.

On the following morning (Monday, April 18th[, 1843]), I took my venerable Greek manuscript of the Psalter, and proceeded to the ferry to obtain a passage.

Perceiving a respectable-looking store (or shop), I entered it, and began to converse with the storekeeper. I mentioned that I had been informed that Mr. Smith possessed some remarkable Egyptian curiosities, which I wished to see. I added that, if Mr. Smith could be induced to show me his treasures, I would show him in return a very wonderful book which had lately come into my possession.

The storekeeper informed me that Mr. Smith was absent, having gone to Carthage that morning; but that he would return about nine o'clock in the evening. He promised to obtain for me admission to the curiosities, and begged to be permitted to see the wonderful book. I accordingly unfolded it from the many wrappers in which I had enveloped it, and, in the presence of the storekeeper and many astonished spectators, whom the rumour of the arrival of a strange book had collected, I produced to view its covers of worm-eaten oak, its discoloured parchments, and its mysterious characters. Surprise was depicted on the countenances of all present, and, after a long silence, one person wiser than his fellows, declared that he knew it to be a revelation from the Lord, and that probably it was one of the lost books of the Bible providentially recovered.

Looking at me with a patronizing air, he assured me that I had brought it to the right place to get it interpreted, for that none on earth but the Lord's Prophet could explain it, or unfold its real antiquity and value. "Oh," I replied, "I am going to England next week, and doubtless I shall find some learned man in one of the universities who can expound it." To this he answered with a sneer, that the Lord had chosen the weak things of the world to confound the mighty; that he had made foolish the wisdom of this world; and that I ought to thank Providence for having brought me to Nauvoo, where the hidden things of darkness could be revealed by divine power. All expressed the utmost anxiety that I should remain in the city until the prophet's return. The storekeeper offered immediately to send an express eighteen miles to Carthage, to hasten the return of Joseph.

At length I yielded to their importunities, and promised that if they would bring me over from Montrose on the following morning, I would exhibit the book to the prophet.

The storekeeper now proceeded to redeem his promise of obtaining for me access to the curiosities. He led the way to a room behind his store, on the door of which was an inscription to the following effect: "Office of Joseph Smith, President of the Church of Latter Day Saints." Having introduced me, together with several Mormons, to this sanctum sanctorum, he locked the door behind him, and proceeded to what appeared to be a small chest of drawers. From this he drew forth a number of glazed slides, like picture frames, containing sheets of papyrus, with Egyptian inscriptions and hieroglyphics. These had been unrolled from four mummies, which the prophet had purchased at a cost of twenty-four hundred dollars. By some inexplicable mode, as the storekeeper informed me, Mr. Smith had discovered that these sheets contained the writings of Abraham, written with his own hand while in Egypt. Pointing to the figure of a man lying on a table, he said, "That is the picture of Abraham on the point of being sacrificed. That man standing by him with a drawn knife is an idolatrous priest of the Egyptians. Abraham prayed to God, who immediately unloosed his bands, and delivered him." Turning to another of the drawers, and pointing to a hieroglyphic representation, one of the Mormons said, "Mr. Smith informs us that this picture is an emblem of redemption. Do you see those four little figures? Well, those are the four quarters of the earth. And do you see that big dog looking at the four figures? That is the old Devil desiring to devour the four quarters of the earth. Look at this person keeping back the big dog. That is Christ keeping the devil from devouring the four quarters of the earth. Look down this way. This figure near the side is Jacob, and those are his two wives. Now do you see those steps?" "What," I replied, "do you mean those stripes across the dress of one of Jacob's wives?" "Yes," he said, "that is Jacob's ladder." "That," I remarked, "is indeed curious."

* * *
[April 19, 1842]

On landing at Nauvoo, I walked with the Doctor along the street which I mentioned before as bordering on the strand. As I advanced with my book in my hand, numerous Mormons came forth from their dwellings, begging to be allowed to see its mysterious pages; and by the time I arrived at the prophet's house, they amounted almost to a crowd. I met Joseph Smith at a short distance from his dwelling, and was regularly introduced to him by the storekeeper. I had the honour of an interview with him who is a Prophet, a Seer, a Merchant, a "Revelator," a President, an Elder, an Editor, and the Lieutenant-General of the "Nauvoo Legion." He is a coarse, plebeian, sensual person in aspect, and his countenance exhibits a curious mixture of the knave and the clown. His hands are large and fat, and on one of his fingers he wears a massive gold ring, upon which I saw an inscription. His eyes appear deficient in that open and straightforward expression which often characterizes an honest man. His dress was of coarse country manufacture, and his white hat was enveloped by a piece of black crape as a sign of mourning for his deceased brother, Don Carlos Smith, the late editor of the "Times and Seasons." His age is about thirty-seven. He led the way to his house, accompanied by many elders, preachers, and other Mormon dignitaries. On entering the house, chairs were provided for the prophet and myself, while the curious and gaping spectators remained standing. I handed the book to the prophet, and begged him to explain its contents. He asked me if I had any idea of its meaning. I replied, that I believed it to be a Greek Psalter; but that I should like to hear his opinion. "No he said; "it ain't Greek at all, except, perhaps, a few words. What ain't Greek, is Egyptian; and what ain't Egyptian, is Greek. This book is very valuable. It is a dictionary of Egyptian Hieroglyphics." Pointing to the capital letters at the commencement of each verse, he said: Them figures is Egyptian hieroglyphics; and them which follows, is the interpretation of the hieroglyphics, written in the reformed Egyptian. Them characters is like the letters that was engraved on the golden plates." Upon this, the Mormons around began to congratulate me on the information I was receiving. "There," they said; "we told you so -- we told you that our prophet would give you satisfaction. None but our prophet can explain these mysteries." The prophet now turned to me, and said, "This book ain't of no use to you, you don't understand it." "Oh yes," I replied; "it is of some use; for if I were in want of money, I could sell it for something handsome."

THE Mormon PROPHET AND THE GREEK PSALTER.

We lately heard a story, which while it may make us mourn over the depravity of Human Nature, serves to show, among many similar facts, the low artifices and cunning tricks, to which the Mormon Prophet will resort, in order to impose upon the gullibility of his followers. The story is in this wise; and can be substantiated by respectable witnesses.

Some time since, Professor Caswell, late of Kemper College, near St. Louis, an Episcopal Clergyman of reputation, being about to leave this country for England, paid a visit to Smith and the Saints, in order that he might be better able to represent the imposture to the British people. It so happened that the Professor had in his possession a Greek Psalter, of great age -- one that had been in the family for several hundred years. This book, as a relic of antiquity, was a curiosity to any one -- but to some of the Saints, who happened to see it, it was a marvel and wonder. Supposing its origin to have been as ancient, at least, as the Prophet's Egyptian Mummy, and not knowing but the Professor had dug it from the bowels of the same sacred hill in Western New York whence sprung the holy Book of Mormon, they importuned him to allow 'brother Joseph' an opportunity of translating it!

The Professor reluctantly assented to the proposal; and accompanied by a number of the anxious brethren, repaired to the residence of the Prophet. The remarkable book was handed him. Joe took it -- examined its old and worn leaves -- and turned over its musty pages. Expectation was now upon tip-toe. brethren looked at one another -- at the book -- then at the Prophet. It was a most interesting scene!

Presently the spirit of prophecy began to arise within him; and he opened his mouth and spoke. That wonderful power, which enables him to see as far through a mill-stone as could Moses or Elijah of old, had already in the twinkling of an eye, made those rough and uncouth characters as plain to him as the nose on the face of the Professor. 'This Book,' said he, 'I pronounce to be a Dictionary of Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphics!'

The brethren present were greatly astonished at this exhibition of their Prophet's power of revealing hidden things. After their exaltation had somewhat subsided, the Professor coolly told them that their Prophet was a base impostor! -- and that the book before them was but a plain Greek Psalter! -- Joe 'stepped out.'

Such is the manner in which this arrant knave imposes upon his followers! and such is the manner in which his knavery is sometimes exposed! Yet, strange that people continue to believe him!

Professor Caswell, since his sojourn in England, has published a work entitled 'Three Days at Nauvoo,' in which this rich scene is represented in an engraving.

Caswall relayed the Greek Psalter incident to Mormon Apostle Willard Richards who intoned with apologetics, "Sometimes Mr. Smith speaks as a prophet, and sometimes as a mere man. If he gave a wrong opinion respecting the book, he spoke as a mere man." Caswall replied, "Whether he spoke as a prophet or as a mere man, he has committed himself, for he has said what is not true. If he spoke as a prophet, therefore, he is a false prophet. If he spoke as a mere man, he cannot be trusted, for he spoke positively and like an oracle respecting that which he knew nothing."

Monday, 18.--In consequence of the utter annihilation of our property by mob violence in the state of Missouri, and the immense expenses which we were compelled to incur, to defend ourselves from the cruel persecutions of that state, we were reduced to the necessity of availing ourselves of the privileges of the general bankrupt law; therefore I went to Carthage with my brothers Hyrum and Samuel H. Smith, and severally testified to our list of insolvency before the clerk of the county commissioners' court. Sidney Rigdon and many more brethren were at Carthage the same day on business. My clerk, Dr. Richards, went with us.

About this time a disturbance broke out in Rhode Island by a part of the inhabitants, wishing to change their Constitution, and make it like those of other states in the Union, which created much confusion and angry feeling in that state, and excitement in other states.

Tuesday, 19.--Rode out and examined some land near the northern limits of the city, &c.

What I find particularly verifying in this account of Prof. Caswall is that he claims that Joseph Smith pronounced the Greek Psalter to

(1) bear characters in the same Reformed Egyptian that the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was taken (specifically the capitalized Greek characters, one each at the beginning of each verse).

(2) be a Dictionary of Egyptian Hieroglyphics, the characters following the large capitalized one at the beginning of each verse (per Smith, an Egyptian hieroglyph) gave the interpretation in Reformed Egyptian thereof.

While the Book of Abraham was in the midst of being published (March and then June 1842), the fact that Smith and his scribes had tried to develop an Egyptian alphabet and grammar, part of the KEP (Kirtland Egyptian Papers, per box so marked in the LDS Church Archives), was not known outside of a pretty tight circle around Smith and his scribes. How would Prof. Caswall, no closer than St. Louis, have come to know such a fact if not for the Smith pronouncement that the Greek Psalter was a Dictionary of Egyptian Hieroglyphics?

This further buttresses the conclusion of Smith's apparent naïvété as to what type of unfamiliar characters he would see and pronounce to be Egyptian hieroglyphs. It had been just a few months before when he took hieratics from the Sensen papyri and used them to fill in the gaps missing in Facsimile #2, which otherwise had no hieratics, only hieroglyphs. See detailed analysis here at my blog.

Then, too, Prof. Caswall's account foreshadows what happened with the Kinderhook Plates a year later. Smith gave identification, but nothing further. After seeing the Greek Psalter, identifying it, and Caswall starting to call Smith into question, then Smith stealthily departed, leaving his followers to try and purchase it from Caswall (he did not sell it).

In late April, early May 1843, just more than a year later, Smith is shown the Kinderhook Plates. Again, he identifies them, only now having learned from the Greek Psalter debacle a year earlier, Smith refused to translate the Kinderhook Plates until examined by antiquities experts and declared to be authentic.

After Smith had identified the Greek Psalter as a Dictionary of Egyptian Hieroglyphics and then made his quiet departure, Caswall then explained to Smith's disciples left behind that it was not such a dictionary, but a Greek Psalter. Where are the flat denials by Smith and his followers? Caswall published his Three Days in Nauvoo pamphlet in London in 1842, 1843.

So, as you can see, Caswall's account is that Joseph Smith was in advance told by Caswall that it was Greek, but Smith 'corrected' him by pronouncing it to mainly have reformed Egyptian characters.

A bull’s eye lies in the fact that Caswall said JSJr pronounced the Greek Psalter to be a Dictionary of Egyptian Hieroglyphics.

Regarding the Greek Psalter incident, an apologetic relies on John Taylor's knowledge of Greek language and thus why he would have spotted the Psalter being in Greek and not allowed the incident to unfold the way that Caswall said it did.

I never declared that I knew Greek; but I am somewhat acquainted with the Greek characters, and could readily distinguish between it and Hebrew. I know that these characters have a resemblance to Greek. What I said in relation to this matter was, that Mr. Caswell showed me an old manuscript, and wanted to know what it was: I told him that I believed it was Greek. In his book that he published against the Latter-day Saints, he acknowledged that it was a Greek psalter.

So John Taylor could detect the very thing that Prof. Caswall informed JSJr beforehand, that it was Greek writings. That comports with Caswall’s account. JSJr first asked Caswall what it was? Caswall said it was Greek. JSJr then disputed that, pronouncing it to be the Dictionary of Egyptian Hieroglyphics.

Another bull’s eye lies in the fact that Caswall said JSJr pronounced the Greek Psalter to be a Dictionary of Egyptian Hieroglyphics. So what about reformed Egyptian. How did Caswall just pull out of the air “Dictionary of Egyptian Hieroglyphics” unless JSJr said it?

[_Joseph]

The fact that Joseph Smith 'married' Fannie Alger a couple years before the 'authority' to do so was restored to the earth.
Add in he did not have his first wife's permission to do so and you have just another damn adulterer.

[_LDS truthseeker]

The Lost 116 Pages

Executive Summary
In 1828, Martin Harris, acting as scribe for Joseph Smith, recorded the first 116 pages of The Book of Mormon. He asked permission of Joseph Smith to let him borrow these pages to take home with him so he could show them to his wife. Three weeks later Mr. Harris returned to Joseph and told him that he had lost the 116 pages.

Joseph inquired of the Lord as to what he should do; in response, he received a revelation, which is recorded in section 10 of the Doctrine & Covenants. He was told that he should not retranslate those lost pages because Satan's cunning plan was to have evil men alter the words in the original translation and wait until Joseph retranslated those pages. The evil men would then produce the original lost 116 pages with the alterations to prove that Joseph was a fraud.

Joseph was instructed to now translate from the smaller, abridged plates of Nephi, instead of from the larger plates of Nephi that he had translated from earlier. This way the same basic information that should be included in the Book of Mormon was there, but it would not be expected to match exactly the original lost 116 pages that were first translated by Joseph.

The story is nonsensical and shows that Joseph lied because there was no master plan from Satan as modifying the pages would be obvious. The pages were likely destroyed by Martin’s wife. If there were actually evil men, the stolen pages wouldn't have simply been destroyed by men who went to such trouble to obtain them.

Detailed Explanation
The official story taught and recorded by the church is nonsensical for the following reasons:

1. The evil men that were conspiring to alter the original documents could not have done so without it being very obvious that the original document was altered. When Martin Harris was scribing for Joseph, he didn't use a pencil and paper. Martin wrote with ink on foolscap. Any alteration would be very noticeable and not convincing to anyone.

In addition to the rubbing out of old words and rewriting of new words, the handwriting would have been different. Any rudimentary handwriting inspection would have determined that it had been altered, especially easy to determine given that the new handwriting would have occurred in the same spot as the rubbed-out and re-written words.

2. If the evil men, that were planning on changing the stolen 116 pages, thought their plan of changing some words from these pages would work to discredit Joseph, they would not have been completely foiled by Joseph translating from different plates to tell the first part of the Book of Mormon story. If they thought their alterations would have gone unnoticed then they would have still tried to alter the 116 pages to discredit his work.

For example, they could have changed some names of people or places or altered events that are central to the beginning of the Book of Mormon and thereby prove that Joseph's new translation was in error. If they really thought their alterations would have gone unnoticed they could have changed the names of Nephi's brothers or the cities they came from or many other items that would have been included in both sets of plates. But they never did this - why? If opponents of the Church really had the lost 116 pages as Joseph claimed, they would have resurfaced in some form to at least attempt to discredit Joseph, even if they would not have been successful.

3. The general belief at the time was that Martin Harris's wife burned the 116 pages. If she destroyed them, then this entire story is simply made up by Joseph Smith. But the prophet Joseph evidently was afraid she had not, but had secretly hidden them, for the purpose of entrapping him, should he ever attempt to reproduce the pages. If the work was really of God, the manuscript could be reproduced word for word without a mistake. If, however, Joseph created it himself, his memory would hardly be adequate to such a task, without numberless changes or verbal differences-and thus "give himself away," since he loudly professed to be all the time aided "by the gift and power of God."

Since the lost pages never surfaced in any form, it is likely that they were destroyed immediately by Martin Harris's wife. Therefore, the entire story about someone altering pages is impossible and just made up by Joseph because he knew he could not reproduce those same pages as he was not really translating the Book of Mormon story.

4. It is convenient that the prophets of old just happened to make an extra set of plates 1500 years ago to cover this contingency, isn't it? Not only are the 116 pages lost, we have an explanation of how it was fixed right in the document itself written thousands of years before the event happened. For further details, see the following insightful essay: http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/Book of Mormon ... script.htm

Lucy Mack Smith's Account
From Chapter 35 of the book 'History of Joseph Smith' by his mother Lucy Mack Smith:

I will now give you a sketch of the proceedings of Martin Harris during the time he was absent from Joseph.

After leaving Joseph, he arrived at home with the manuscript in safety. Soon after, he exhibited the manuscript to his wife and family. His wife was so pleased with it, that she gave him the privilege of locking it up in her own set of drawers, which was a special favor, for she had never before this allowed him even the privilege of looking into them. After he had shown the manuscript to those who had a right, according to his oath, to see it, he went with his wife to visit one of her relatives, who lived some 10 or 15 miles distant.

After remaining with them a short time, he returned home, but his wife declined accompanying him back. Soon after this return, a very particular friend of his made him a visit, to whom he related all that he knew concerning the Record. The man's curiosity was much excited, and, as might be expected, he earnestly desired to see the manuscript. Martin was so anxious to gratify his friend, that, although it was contrary to his obligation [The Lord listed five people who belonged to Martin Harris' family who were allowed to see the manuscript. No one else had the Lord's OK.], he went to the drawer to get the manuscript, but the key was gone. He sought for it some time, but could not find it. Resolved, however, to carry his purpose into execution, he picked the lock and, in doing so, considerably injured his wife's bureau. He then took out the manuscript, and, after showing it to this friend, he removed it to his own set of drawers, where he could have it at his command. Passing by his oath, he showed it to any good friend that happened to call on him.

When Mrs. Harris returned, and discovered the marred state of the bureau, her irascible temper was excited to the utmost pitch, and an intolerable storm ensued, which descended with the greatest violence upon the devoted head of her husband.

Having once made a sacrifice of his conscience, Mr. Harris no longer regarded its scruples; so he continued to exhibit the writings, until a short time before Joseph arrived, to any one whom he regarded as prudent enough to keep the secret, except our family, but we were not allowed to set our eyes upon them.

For a short time previous to Joseph's arrival, Mr. Harris had been otherwise engaged, and thought but little about the manuscript. When Joseph sent for him, he went immediately to the drawer where he had left it, but, behold it was gone! He asked his wife where it was. She solemnly averred that she did not know anything respecting it. He then made a faithful search throughout the house, as before related.

The manuscript has never been found; and there is no doubt but Mrs. Harris took it from the drawer, with the view of retaining it until another translation should be given, then to alter the original translation, for the purpose of showing a discrepancy between them, and thus make the whole appear to be a deception.

It seemed as though Martin Harris, for his transgression, suffered temporally as well as spiritually. The same day on which the forgoing circumstances took place, a dense fog spread itself over his field, and blighted his wheat while in the blow, so that he lost about two-thirds of his crop, whilst those fields which lay only on the opposite side of the road, received no injury whatever.

I well remember that day of darkness, both within and without. To us, at least, the heavens seemed clothed with blackness, and the earth shrouded with gloom. I have often said within myself, that if a continual punishment, as severe as that which we experienced on that occasion, were to be inflicted upon the most wicked characters who ever stood upon the footstool of the Almighty--if even their punishment were no greater than that, I should feel to pity their condition.

Summary:

Satan and some evil men were not really behind the plot to steal the 116 pages. The stolen pages would have eventually come forth, in probably a failed attempt to discredit Joseph. If nothing else they would have been worth a lot of money so we can't imagine why the evil men, if they existed, would not have used the pages to either try to discredit Joseph, ransom them to Martin and Joseph or hold on to them to eventually sell them. The stolen pages wouldn't have simply been destroyed by men who went to such trouble to obtain them.

Instead it seems much more plausible that Martin Harris' wife had immediately destroyed the pages to defy her husband. Joseph's mother also believed that it was Mrs. Harris that took the lost 116 pages. Her comment "there is no doubt but Mrs. Harris took it from the drawer" makes this very clear. Joseph must have made up the story about Satan's plan to discredit him as he was not really translating an ancient document as he claimed.

A further problem is that Joseph Smith appears to have falsified canonized scripture (D&C Section 10 and the inroduction to the 1830 version of the Book of Mormon) by making up a story about evil men stealing the lost 116 pages in an attempt to discredit him when it seems obvious that there were no evil men and that Mrs. Harris likely destroyed the manuscript. If Joseph did make up this story, and have it canonized as scripture in the Doctrine & Covenants, then how can his other scriptures that he brought forth be trusted?

Reference: http://www.mormonthink.com/lost116web.htm

[_just me]

D&C 124

27 [...] and build a house to my name, for the Most High to dwell therein.
28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.

In it the Lord tells his people that they have had the fulness of the priesthood taken from them and that it can only be restored in the completed temple that they need to build.
*This is a problem for the belief that the endowment is part of the fulness of the priesthood because it was introduced prior to the completion of the temple in a regular building. This also indicates that polygamy/spiritual wifery/celestial marriage was not done using the fulness of the priesthood. In fact, the church was being run without the fulness of the priesthood and there is no indication that the fulness was ever restored.

30 For this ordinance belongeth to my house, and cannot be acceptable to me, only in the days of your poverty, wherein ye are not able to build a house unto me.
31 But I command you, all ye my saints, to build a house unto me; and I grant unto you a sufficient time to build a house unto me; and during this time your baptisms shall be acceptable unto me.
32 But behold, at the end of this appointment your baptisms for your dead shall not be acceptable unto me; and if you do not these things at the end of the appointment ye shall be rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the Lord your God.

They are told that they will have enough time to complete the temple and if they do not complete their tasks in the allotted time they will be REJECTED as a church along with their dead.
*This is a problem because the Nauvoo House and Nauvoo Temple were not completed.

Parley P. Pratt wrote that at the end of 1845, "We continued, however, our work on the Temple, a portion of which was finished and dedicated." [Autobiography of parley P. Pratt, pg.340]
Brigham Young said of the incomplete Nauvoo Temple, "We built one in Nauvoo. I could pick out several before me now that were there when it, was built, and know just how much was finished and what was done. It is true we left brethren there with instructions to finish it, and they got it nearly completed before it was burned, but the Saints did not enjoy it." [JoD 18:303-304]

The Times and Seasons printed this notice about the unfinished temple in the January 15, 1846 edition (although this article is dated Jan. 20th):

January, thus far, has been mild, which, in the midst of our preparations for an exodus next spring, has given an excellent time to finish the Temple. Nothing has appeared so much like a "finish" of that holy edifice as the present. The attic story was finished in December, and if the Lord continues to favor us, the first story above the basement, will be completed ready for meeting, in the month of February. The Font, standing upon twelve stone oxen, is about ready, and the floor of the second story is laid, so that all speculation about the Temple of God at Nauvoo, must cease.

40 And verily I say unto you, let this house be built unto my name, that I may reveal mine ordinances therein unto my people;
41 For I deign to reveal unto my church things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the fulness of times.

What were these ordinances that could ONLY be revealed in the temple? Obviously not the anything we have been doing. The Nauvoo Temple was never completed and these ordinances were never introduced.

45 And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my servants whom I have appointed to lead my people, behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place

They are told that if they are obedient they will not be removed from Nauvoo.
*This is a problem because the Saints did leave Nauvoo....We are taught today that they were made to leave, not by choice.

If one believes the scriptures and promises therein are from God and one believes that God does not and cannot lie then it is logical to conclude that God rejected the LDS church along with her dead back in the mid-1840s when they failed to complete the Nauvoo Temple.

D&C 124:47 And it shall come to pass that if you build a house unto my name, and do not do the things that I say, I will not perform the oath which I make unto you, neither fulfil the promises which ye expect at my hands, saith the Lord.
48 For instead of blessings, ye, by your own works, bring cursings, wrath, indignation, and judgments upon your own heads, by your follies, and by all your abominations, which you practise before me, saith the Lord.

A contradiction is revealed in D&C 124:
We are told in D&C 132 that only one person holds the keys to the sealing power at a time. Yet, in D&C 124 we are told that Hyrum is given the keys to sealing power.

132:7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this gpower (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the ikeys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

D&C 124:124 First, I give unto you Hyrum Smith to be a patriarch unto you, to hold the sealing blessings of my church, even the Holy Spirit of promise, whereby ye are sealed up unto the day of redemption, that ye may not fall notwithstanding the hour of temptation that may come upon you.

124:93 That whoever he blesses shall be blessed, and whoever he curses shall be cursed; that whatsoever he shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever he shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
94 And from this time forth I appoint unto him that he may be a prophet, and a seer, and a revelator unto my church, as well as my servant Joseph;

[_Darth J]

I am not saying this is one of the most trenchant criticisms necessarily, but:

D&C 116

Spring Hill [Missouri] is named by the Lord Adam-ondi-Ahman, because, said he, it is the place where Adam shall come to visit his people, or the Ancient of Days shall sit, as spoken of by Daniel the prophet.

The LDS Church has a visitors' center at Adam-Ondi-Ahman.



According to church teachings, when Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden, they went to Adam-Ondi-Ahman, where Adam made animals sacrifices to God.

E.g.,

"Chapter 7: The Atonement of Jesus Christ," Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Wilford Woodruff, (2004)

When Adam, after being driven from the garden of Eden, went to Adam-ondi-Ahman to offer sacrifice, the angel of the Lord asked him why he did so. Adam replied that he did not know, but the Lord had commanded him to do it. He was then told that the blood of bulls and goats, of rams and lambs should be spilt upon the altar as a type of the great and last sacrifice which should be offered up for the sins of the world. [See Moses 5:4–7.]

Joseph Smith taught that Adam built an altar at Adam Ondi Ahman.

July 2001 Ensign

“Joseph the Prophet, told me that the Garden of Eden was in Jackson County, Missouri. When Adam was driven out he went to the place we now call Adam-ondi-Ahman, Daviess County, Missouri. There he built an altar and offered sacrifices” (notes from a meeting, as quoted in Matthias F. Cowley, Wilford Woodruff: History of His Life and Labors [1909], 481).

Joseph Smith actually showed the altar built by Adam to several people.

Heber C. Kimball:

The Prophet Joseph called upon Brother Brigham, myself and others, saying, 'Brethren, come, go along with me, and I will show you something.' He led us a short distance to a place where were the ruins of three altars built of stone, one above the other, and one standing a little back of the other, like unto the pulpits in the Kirtland Temple, representing the order of three grades of Priesthood; 'There,' said Joseph, 'is the place where Adam offered up sacrifice after he was cast out of the garden.' The altar stood at the highest point of the bluff. I went and examined the place several times while I remained there."

John Taylor interview with Abraham Smoot:

John Taylor: Brother Smoot, did you see on the top of a hill, in a place called Adam-ondi-Ahman, the remains of what Joseph Smith said had been an altar built by Adam, upon which he offered sacrifice?

Abraham Smoot: Yes, sir. I first saw it in 1837, and the spring of 1838, when assisting to survey the town called by that name.

John Taylor: What was the condition of the stones of which the altar had been built?

Abraham Smoot: I remember well. The stones which lay scattered around looked as though they had been torn from a wall.

John Taylor: Yes, my remembrance is too that the stones were scattered as you say they were, having no particular form, except in one place. You remarked that you helped to make the survey; and prior to this particular conversation, you told me that you assisted in making an excavation.

Abraham Smoot: Yes, sir. I helped to excavate around the base of the altar, some 2 to 3 feet, and from 6 to 8 feet in length, which was sufficient to thoroughly satisfy us that the foundation of the wall was still there.

John Taylor: Did you examine the wall further at any later period?

Abraham Smoot: No, sis; but we intended to do so after the war, or as some called it, the "Mormon War," was over. The opportunity, however, to do so did not present itself afterwards.

John Taylor: Do you know the name of the hill where the Altar was?

Abraham Smoot: I do not recollect that. I will say that I heard Joseph say that it was the remains of an altar built by Adam; and that he offered sacrifice on it, and called his family and blessed them there.

John Taylor: That was on the point of the hill that formed a curvature?

Abraham Smoot: Yes, sir. And that point commanded a beautiful view of the country.

John Taylor, again:

"It was stated by the Prophet Joseph Smith, in our hearing while standing on an elevated piece of ground or plateau near Adam-ondi-Ahman fn (Davis Co., Missouri,), where there were a number of rocks piled together, that the valley before us was the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman; or in other words, the valley where God talked with Adam, and where he gathered his righteous posterity, as recorded in the above revelation, and that this pile of stones was an altar built by him when he offered up sacrifices, as we understand, on that occasion."

Edward Stevenson:

"I stood with Joseph Smith and others when he pointed out the sacred spot of Adam's altar. Turning to the lovely valley below us, in a large bend of Grand River, he said, 'Here is the real valley where Father Adam called his posterity together and blessed them.' He also stated that the Garden of Eden was in Jackson County-the Center Place of Zion where a great temple will be reared."

http://www.mormonhistoricsitesfoundatio ... ahman1.htm

The LDS Church teaches that after Adam died, there was a global flood that covered the entire planet, and that only the people on Noah's ark survived.

Example.

Questions:

How would a stone altar have remained intact while the entire planet was covered with water during Noah's flood?

How would some of the stones even have remained "scattered" in a specific area if Spring Hill, Missouri was underwater, and the entire Earth was an ocean, until Noah's flood abated?

[_Tarski]

Let me help.
Does anyone thing that the Book of Mormon is made up by someone rather than being a translation of an ancient religious record?

WHY?

Put it down in words.


Remember, the newcommers may not have even heard of elephants, steel, or about KJV Bible cribbing etc.
Someone needs to put down the usual stuff since I think it is still good and apologetic responses insufficient.

[_beefcalf]

Tarski,

Evidence that the Book of Mormon is a 19th century invention:

In the Book of Mormon, Mosiah 16 verse 6, we read Abinidi's words as he spoke nearly one hundred and fifty years before Jesus was born. He says:

And now if Christ had not come into the world, speaking of things to come as though they had already come, there could have been no redemption.

When we take into account the numerous attestations that space was limited on the plates and that ore for more plates was hard to come by, and that a special form of writing was used to ensure efficient use of that very limited space, it boggles the mind to think that this phrase would have been inscribed as is.

But when one imagines any person actually saying such a thing, credulity is stretched to the breaking point.

Yet if one can bring themselves to imagine a 19th century charlatan dictating the words of a fictional character, and, in a moment of confusion, losing his place in his invented chronology, this strange phrasing begins to make perfect sense.

[_Sethbag]

Executive Summary:
The LDS church has always taught that Adam and Eve were the first human beings on Earth, a few thousand years ago in the Garden of Eden, that there was no death of any living thing, nor any reproduction of living things, until Adam and Eve partook of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, thereby bringing death and mortality into the world.

These beliefs are contradicted by mountains of evidence, derived from a variety of different fields of scientific research and discovery.

Detailed Explanation:
The LDS temple endowment ceremony contains, among other things, a version of the Genesis creation story, whereby the creation of the Earth is culminated with Adam and Eve being in the Garden, and as part of what happens, Eve eats of the fruit, and while convincing Adam to eat, points out that if he doesn't, he will be separated from Eve, who, having partaken of the fruit, will be cast out of the Garden of Eden. Thus they will be unable to multiply and replenish the Earth, thereby disobeying God's command to do so. It is clear from this teaching that without Adam's following Eve's lead and partaking of the fruit, the human race will not exist on Earth. Although there is a brief mention about the story of the creation of the man and the woman being figurative, that is said in the context of God taking a rib from Adam's side and fashioning Eve from the rib, not that the whole Garden of Eden story itself is figurative.

Based on scriptures such as 2 Nephi 2:22, Mormon Doctrine has always claimed that there was no death in the Earth, nor any reproduction, until Adam would fall. This is stated over and over again by various Prophets and Apostles. A good summation of this doctrine can be found in the page on Death in the LDS Bible Dictionary. A relevant quote from that page contains:

Latter-day revelation teaches that there was no death on this earth for any forms of life before the fall of Adam. Indeed, death entered the world as a direct result of the fall (2 Ne. 2:22; Moses 6:48).

Here are two verses from the Book of Mormon, found in 2 Nephi 2:22-23, which I quote to demonstrate the type of scriptural basis these beliefs have within the Mormon canon.

22And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

On the LDS Bible Dictionary page on the Fall of Adam we find the following quotes:

Before the fall, Adam and Eve had physical bodies but no blood. There were no sin, no death, and no children among any of the earthly creations. With the eating of the “forbidden fruit,” Adam and Eve became mortal, sin entered, blood formed in their bodies, and death became a part of life. Adam became the “first flesh” upon the earth (Moses 3:7), meaning that he and Eve were the first to become mortal. After Adam fell, the whole creation fell and became mortal. Adam’s fall brought both physical and spiritual death into the world upon all mankind (Hel. 14:16–17).

And:

Latter-day revelation supports the biblical account of the fall, showing that it was a historical event that literally occurred in the history of man.

Modern scientific discoveries demonstrate unequivocally, and inarguably, that animals, plants, insects, and so forth have been living, in various species, and dying, and evolving, for over a billion years. The species that resulted in homo sapiens split off from our nearest cousin species, the chimpanzees and bonobos, several million years ago. The idea that, as the Bible Dictionary article says, the Fall of Adam is something that happened "in the history of man" is absurd, because that would presuppose the existence of "man" prior to any death, yet we know that it took hundreds of millions of years of birth, death, and evolution before the first hominid species at all, not to speak of homo sapiens itself, ever roamed the Earth.

The Biblical timeline for the Fall of Adam, which the Bible Dictionary claims "modern revelation" supports, has the Fall occurring perhaps 6,000 years ago, give or take. Modern scientific discoveries have now demonstrated that not only had things been living and dying for hundreds of millions of years prior to this time, but indeed the first proto-civilizations had already coalesced out of the primitive hunter/gatherer families that had preceeded them. The first agriculture was being practiced, the earliest forms of written language symbols had already been invented, and so forth. These were all developments which had been tens of thousands of years in the making, and the Bible timeline would have the Fall of Adam occur after all of this, when there was supposed to be but two humans on Earth, Adam and Eve.

Conflicts between this LDS view of the Creation and Fall of Adam with the scientific theory of Evolution
Various Mormon apologists will state that they are not troubled by the science of organic evolution, and who am I to argue about what they, personally, believe. They do not represent the historical teachings of the LDS church and it's Apostles and Prophets, however. The science of evolution requires for things to have been living and dying on Earth for hundreds of millions of years. LDS doctrine on the subject has always held that there was no death of any living thing until the first human male, Adam, performed some act described, perhaps figuratively, as "partaking of the forbidden fruit".

I don't have quotes onhand, but I have personally witnessed Apologists trying to discredit the teachings of various LDS Apostles and Prophets who have repeated the doctrines I mentioned above, as a way of saving the credibility of the church by avoiding the spectacle of Prophets and Apostles having taught doctrine subsequently demonstrated to have been wrong. I have seen Apologists claim that the LDS Bible Dictionary itself doesn't claim to be definitive on all matters of LDS doctrine, yet the LDS Bible Dictionary is nothing more than a reflection of a century and a half of Mormon theological explication of the various topics discussed therein, heavily footnoted with references to the Mormon scriptures backing up those teachings.

Conclusion
There is a fundamental conflict between the sciences of evolution, archeology, paleontology, molecular biology, and probably several other disciplines, and the discoveries made by practicers of these sciences, and the LDS doctrines surrounding the creation and "Fall" of the human race in the Garden of Eden. Moreover, the LDS Church affirms through claims of "modern revelation" and credible ancient scripture, the historical fact of the Fall of Adam bringing death, mortality, and reproduction, into the Earth, all in direct conflict with the natural history of the Earth as it is now understood to be by the best available evidence.