Simon Belmont wrote:Seriously? Does Schlep bring any coherent arguments to the table that haven't been dealt with ad nauseam?
No, he is a standard anti-Mormon spouting standard anti-Mormon dogma.
Perhaps in your more than 5,000 posts you'd like to link us to the coherent argument(s) you brought to the table that haven't been dealt with ad nauseam. No, you are a standard anti-Scratch spouting standard anti-Scratch dogma.
Miss Taken wrote: Why me, I would rather have two people believe something that is authentic and true than 1,000,000 people believing something that is false. Jesus had very few following him at the time he was living, not that many anyway and those that did, if the records are correct, left him at his time of most urgent need. Not enough followed him to result in any significant mention in any contemporary documents outside of the small community that he was a part of. It wasn't till Constantine that christianity really started to grow and become powerful.
Absolutely I agree that nothing can be 'proven' either way. But let people have the information there is, as muddy as it is, and let them decide for themselves. This is treating them as spiritual adults rather than children.
Mary
Mary, Mary, Mary, I have known you for quite a long time. We go back years in fact and I do appreciate the kindness that you showed me on a particular exmo board years ago. But I am afraid that I will have to ask you a question about what you posted.
What in your opinion should the church be giving its members in terms of information? You see, Mary, no matter what the church gives to its members, it will not make any antimormon critic on this board happy. Just the opposite, in fact. But really, Mary what should the lds church tell its members from its past history? And when should it be told? In book form? In the manuals? And how often? Every year? Every month? Twice a year?
Now mary I know of church that gives an indepth history to its members. Do lutherans have an indepth knowledge of lutheran history that is not faith promoting? Do catholics get an indepth history of their church that is not faith promoting? Do baptists? Most people are ignorant of their church's sordid pasts. And the Mormons? Well, they should be required to study a thousand page book about all the details of their history and take an exam once a year so they don't forget.
I'm sure that the Brethren's goal is not too please critics, but I imagine they share as a goal trying to stop the hemmoraging of members--and even bishops--from COTPOTCOJCOLDS due to learning the truth. Maybe if this Thursday the FP/12 close their eyes, click their heels together and say 'there's no time like 1952' three times, elohim will intervene and take most mass media except radio and infancy TV away.
Ah, Simon, and Why Me, and any others who are the Defenders of the Faith -- and contrary to what you may think, I see Defender of the Faith in a positive light...
I respect your right to defend your beliefs. I think highly of you that you hold so closely to your defense. You are absolutely correct, Simon, specifically, in your response to my attempt to point out that one won't find anything on lds.org if you type in the keywords "Joseph Smith polygamy". Yes, you do find 54 responses. That was an incredible lack of consistency on my part. I apologize. I will have to be sure to word my future responses in exact phrases that mean specifically what I'm trying to say. I will also need to remember to not use exclamation points and capitalization in the future, as that is annoying. I will also need to write my responses at least above a fifth grade level. I promise, I'll work on that. Most of all, I need to remember to be consistent (boy, that was hard for me to write without wanting to capitalize...).
I'm sure Simon and Why Me are good guys. The church needs people to defend the faith. I would guess that a good chunk of us who are saddened by what we have learned used to be terrific defenders of the faith. It is not with a happy heart that most of us come to the conclusion that we cannot agree with the discrepancies that we find. I would love nothing more than to be able to agree with you, Simon and Why Me. I wish that I could be so sure of myself as you are. That would make life so much happier for me. I would fit in really well with the lion's share of people in my ward. I would be in constant agreement with my strong TBM older children. I could raise my youngest in the church with absolutely no ambivalence. I would LOVE to be back in that place (oops -- sorry about the capitalization -- I digress).
I guess what I would love to know is why people, apologists or others, come on to some of these forums and defend the faith in such an unkind manner. How is that bringing the lost sheep back to the fold? Is that really your goal? Because I am guessing that many of the people who are searching for the truth, who are perplexed by discrepancies in the church -- we are not usually looking for a fight. We are looking to understand. Many of us are where I currently am -- hoping against hope that something will make sense to me -- that some kind person can help me understand the discrepancies in a way that makes continuing church membership viable.
I love how someone who doesn't know me at all can make a judgement call such as I am a "Mormon hater." That's fairly inconsistent, since I am Mormon. I guess I hate myself, according to that reasoning. I'm pretty sure that I don't, but hey, Simon must know me better than I know myself. What I really hate is the not knowing. The not knowing what I should and shouldn't believe anymore. The not knowing what is moral and what is immoral. Apparently, I should not be immoral, I should not attempt to marry another man beyond my husband, but it's ok for Joseph Smith to marry another women in addition to Emma, because he was the prophet. These pesky morality rules do not apply to him. Maybe this is just something I shouldn't worry about. It will all be explained to me when this life is over...
Unfortunately, I am also advised by the Church to use what intelligence the Lord gave me. (Yes, I'm sure that Simon and Why Me will question the little bit that the Lord provided, in my case..) I'm trying, guys. Seriously. Most of us are just trying to understand the discrepancies. We've been taught to respect honesty, and yet, we haven't felt that we've received full disclosure on the discrepancies. Whatever I've discovered, I've discovered through purely church-approved sources. Doesn't make the bitter pill go down any easier. But go ahead, blame me for all of this. I can take it.
What I don't get is this -- what is your point for being on this (these) forum (forums)? Are you here to bring back the "one"? The lost sheep? If so, I don't think your manner is very effective. Now, the people who've been so kind, and welcomed me into the forum -- whether they may be anti or TBM, I'm gonna listen to them. They're actually NICE. (Oops, capitalization again -- how annoying). On any forum, I figure most of us are here to support each other, to try and figure out this mess together. We don't want to win a fight. We could care less. We care more about people, and much, much less about being right. Also, we often care about the gospel of Jesus Christ. We're often trying to apply Christ-like principles to this foray you might consider "outer darkness." I may have strayed from that Christ-like example, as I saw this bishop being demonized by people who don't even know him -- I may have struck out blindly, and may have been less than kind. For that, I apologize.
If you "defenders of the faith" out there -- you who are like Simon and Why Me -- want to bring us lost sheep back to the fold, then by all means, help us. We would welcome that. If that is, indeed, your goal. If that's not your goal, if your goal is to win a fight, then fine. You win. You're obviously much brighter than I am.
schleppenheimer wrote:If you "defenders of the faith" out there -- you who are like Simon and Why Me -- want to bring us lost sheep back to the fold, then by all means, help us. We would welcome that. If that is, indeed, your goal. If that's not your goal, if your goal is to win a fight, then fine. You win. You're obviously much brighter than I am.
Simon's goal is to respond to every thread with name calling or derailing. Simon doesn't bring anything to the table except bitter hatred for anyone who criticizes his church. Everyone is a bigot, everyone is hateful, everyone is wrong - except Simon. Just search through his thousands of posts and see for yourself. This is the primary reason I have him on complete ignore - he offers absolutely nothing. He only serves to derail and focus the attention of the thread into attacks against the critic.
So before you get worked up in long spats with Simon, realize, you could say the same thing to him a thousand times - a thousand different ways, and he would still come at you with one line "zingers" parroting the same thing over and over. It is his modus operandi. And even if you suddenly saw Christ and came back to the church, he would brow beat you anyway.
Themis wrote: We should always try to be balanced. I think many here including my self have been, and hopefully still are.
Are you willing to attend church, read the scriptures, obey the commandments, read conference talks, pray, listen for the Spirit? This is what I'm referring to when I mention being balanced. I'm assuming this is what you also mean by keeping a balance while working through problems associated with faith and/or Mormonism in particular?
Infymus wrote:Simon's goal is to respond to every thread with name calling or derailing. Simon doesn't bring anything to the table except bitter hatred for anyone who criticizes his church. Everyone is a bigot, everyone is hateful, everyone is wrong - except Simon. Just search through his thousands of posts and see for yourself. This is the primary reason I have him on complete ignore - he offers absolutely nothing. He only serves to derail and focus the attention of the thread into attacks against the critic.
So before you get worked up in long spats with Simon, realize, you could say the same thing to him a thousand times - a thousand different ways, and he would still come at you with one line "zingers" parroting the same thing over and over. It is his modus operandi. And even if you suddenly saw Christ and came back to the church, he would brow beat you anyway.
Simon is the ultimate MDB troll.
Infymus is just angry because he feels immense guilt for creating, and spending inordinate amounts of time on, a site dedicated to bigotry.
schleppenheimer wrote:Thanks, Infymus. I'll take your words under serious advisement.
I advise you to search through Infymus' posts, look at his hate-site "Mormon Curtain" and realize that if MDB has a one true bigot, Infymus is it. He is also proud of his bigotry. He is also fat.
schleppenheimer wrote:Thanks, Infymus. I'll take your words under serious advisement.
I advise you to search through Infymus' posts, look at his hate-site "Mormon Curtain" and realize that if MDB has a one true bigot, Infymus is it. He is also proud of his bigotry. He is also fat.