DiscussMormonism.com

mentalgymnast wrote:
Are you willing to attend church, read the scriptures, obey the commandments, read conference talks, pray, listen for the Spirit? This is what I'm referring to when I mention being balanced. I'm assuming this is what you also mean by keeping a balance while working through problems associated with faith and/or Mormonism in particular?

Regards,
MG

Most of us have been doing these things for decades and even while working through difficult LDS issues concerning LDS truth claims. I think what you are saying is not so much about being balanced, but maintaining as much belief and doing the prayers, attending church, reading scriptures, listen to the spirit/feelings/thoughts, etc until you have convinced yourself again that it is true. This is how people in any religion can get very strong testimonies. It is the way many religions can get their adherents to self delude themselves into believing and even believing they think they know it's true. I have seen this in your posts. I know it can be hard to change beliefs, especially when family and social life are so tied to the church, so I don't fault members like yourself maintaining this process to eventually convince themselves that the church is true.

schleppenheimer wrote: I would guess that a good chunk of us who are saddened by what we have learned used to be terrific defenders of the faith. It is not with a happy heart that most of us come to the conclusion that we cannot agree with the discrepancies that we find. ... Because I am guessing that many of the people who are searching for the truth, who are perplexed by discrepancies in the church... help me understand the discrepancies in a way that makes continuing church membership viable... Most of us are just trying to understand the discrepancies.

It appears that some of your problems are related to "do as I say, not as I do" issues. I'm assuming that a good portion of the correlated doctrine and/or practice that we have in the church today is not a major issue for you. Faith, repentance, listening to the Spirit, prayer, sacrament, covenant making, service, tithing, worshiping God and Jesus, baptism, honesty, charity, chastity, etc. These are the basics. The things that are "do as I say". Or from a faithful and believing perspective, we believe God has said through his prophets.

Your issues are probably due to instances in church history where "do's" seemingly didn't match up with what was said. Discrepancy between "say" and "do". Problem is, we are separated in time and space from what was purportedly done (and said) and the WHY. To make a judgment call NOW becomes a guessing game and may result in significant inaccuracies. Especially when you throw in incomplete or distorted accounts, biased or prejudicial information, motives, agency of individuals, disobedience/sin, etc.

People out of our time and space lived as they lived and did what they did in response to their own environment, including temptations to choose inappropriate behaviors/actions. The question for me is, was what was said then by first person accounts in regards to things such as the First Vision, Book of Mormon, Priesthood Restoration, Temple Ordinances, Polygamy, Nature of God and Christ, etc. true at their core. I believe that there is reason to respond affirmatively or at least with a plausible yes. Having questions, doubts, and incomplete understanding of various events is natural as one becomes more widely separated in time and space from Joseph Smith and others involved in the restoration.

In my estimation, questions, doubts, and incomplete understandings are manageable within the framework of participating in and being an active member of the church. Those people that take a binary and somewhat simplistic or undeveloped view of reality, In other words"s either/or...black and white... one right or one wrong...no matter what POV, are bound to have problems with perceived discrepancies seen through the often distorted lens of time and space.

As one moves along with issues and concerns and yet seeks to retain a sense of balance without throwing out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak, it is possible to develop a more nuanced and realistic, at least in my view, perspective on the discrepancies you are concerned/troubled with.

Best wishes on your path,
MG

Simon Belmont wrote:

schleppenheimer wrote:Thanks, Infymus. I'll take your words under serious advisement.

I advise you to search through Infymus' posts, look at his hate-site "Mormon Curtain" and realize that if MDB has a one true bigot, Infymus is it. He is also proud of his bigotry. He is also fat.

I love the website "Mormon Curtain" and it's one of the first places I landed in my search for truth regarding the church. Infymus....is that really your website? If so, thank you.

schleppenheimer,
Do you post over on the NOM board (or does someone just have "your name" over there)? I don't post over there, but I skim it and read there often. I have always enjoyed reading what you've posted over there (and I loved your entrance on this forum).

I found this place searching for information regarding Bishop Bloor's letter and I've enjoyed reading this thread and others too.

Interesting reading...

First post here. I left the lds religion about 2 years ago for many of the same reasons that this Bishop left. I have spoken with many friends who take a much less black/white approach than I do about the lds religion.

For me the historical issues about polygamy, polyandry, 1st vision accounts, Book of Abraham, Book of Mormon archeology, Book of Mormon translation, etc, etc are important because they give us facts about J Smith we had previously not known. And the whole validity of the lds church rests on J Smith, not God in my opinion. J Smith either told the truth about his vision and the Book of Mormon or he didn't. So- can I trust J Smith's word?

I do believe that many people can be happy in the lds religion if they don't take everything literally and look at the religion as a good place to 1) learn good values and 2) belong to a very well organized and structured religious group.

We all agree that every prophet that has ever lived is imperfect and has made mistakes. That is a moot point. The more important question to me is whether a self proclaimed prophet is deceitful. Does he deceive and lie for personal gain and can his word be trusted? David of the Old Testament committed adultery and had a man killed. But he admitted it and plead for forgiveness to the end of his life. J Smith deceived and lied to his wife, potential converts, church membership and close friends. We can prove that he was deceitful and a liar about polygamy- nobody can refute this point.

Once it has been established that a person has repeatedly lied their entire life about important facts, the burden of proof lies with them to demonstrate they can be trusted. So we pick apart their other claims to see if we can trust them. J Smith's claims about the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham and a myriad of others cannot be factually substantiated to prove he was telling the truth about any of them. They all have to be taken with a dump-truck of faith to be believed. And like the Bishop stated-

When faith in the unseen is replaced with indisputable evidence to the contrary, faith becomes redundant and, in fact, becomes a pleasant, if fanciful, myth.

I believe in God. I value the relationship I have with him above anything. To me, the lds religion enhances people's relationship with the religion more than it does with God. The "gospel" in Mormonism means, "the church". The lds church is not the "gospel". The Good News is something entirely different...

Madison54 wrote:I love the website "Mormon Curtain" and it's one of the first places I landed in my search for truth regarding the church. Infymus....is that really your website? If so, thank you.

It is my site, but the content belongs to the public at large. They are to thank for all of the articles I bring into one place. But regardless, you're very welcome.

Billy Law wrote:For me the historical issues about polygamy, polyandry, 1st vision accounts, Book of Abraham, Book of Mormon archeology, Book of Mormon translation, etc, etc are important because they give us facts about J Smith we had previously not known. And the whole validity of the lds church rests on J Smith, not God in my opinion. J Smith either told the truth about his vision and the Book of Mormon or he didn't. So- can I trust J Smith's word?

Maybe you can't trust Joseph Smith's word. Why should anyone trust the word of one person? Can we trust the writers of the Bible? Is there any proof outside the Bible that such events happened? Can I trust the writer of John, Mark, Luke and Matthew?

However, it is not a question of trusting Joseph Smith. It is a question of trusting 12 other people besides him: Emma and the 11 witnesses. Emma because there is no way if this whole thing is a fraud of her not knowing about it. And the same holds true for the 11 witnesses. Now do you trust the 11 witnesses and Emma? That would be a better question.

why me wrote:Maybe you can't trust Joseph Smith's word. Why should anyone trust the word of one person? Can we trust the writers of the Bible? Is there any proof outside the Bible that such events happened? Can I trust the writer of John, Mark, Luke and Matthew?

However, it is not a question of trusting Joseph Smith. It is a question of trusting 12 other people besides him: Emma and the 11 witnesses. Emma because there is no way if this whole thing is a fraud of her not knowing about it. And the same holds true for the 11 witnesses. Now do you trust the 11 witnesses and Emma? That would be a better question.

No, I don't trust them. To quote Mark Twain:

Some people have to have a world of evidence before they can come anywhere in the neighborhood of believing anything; but for me, when a man tells me that he has "seen the engravings which are upon the plates," and not only that, but an angel was there at the time, and saw him see them, and probably took his receipt for it, I am very far on the road to conviction, no matter whether I ever heard of that man before or not, and even if I do not know the name of the angel, or his nationality either. ... And when I am far on the road to conviction, and eight men, be they grammatical or otherwise, come forward and tell me that they have seen the plates too; and not only seen those plates but "hefted" them, I am convinced. I could not feel more satisfied and at rest if the entire Whitmer family had testified.

And why would I trust someone who swore Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy?

Madison54 wrote:
I love the website "Mormon Curtain" and it's one of the first places I landed in my search for truth regarding the church. Infymus....is that really your website? If so, thank you.

Really? You found truth on that site? I think that you mean you found the truth which you wish to believe in. And that makes quite a difference.

why me wrote:Maybe you can't trust Joseph Smith's word. Why should anyone trust the word of one person? Can we trust the writers of the Bible? Is there any proof outside the Bible that such events happened? Can I trust the writer of John, Mark, Luke and Matthew?

I wouldn't trust there words either, but the difference is that we know Joseph was willing to lie.

However, it is not a question of trusting Joseph Smith. It is a question of trusting 12 other people besides him: Emma and the 11 witnesses.

Not really

Emma because there is no way if this whole thing is a fraud of her not knowing about it. And the same holds true for the 11 witnesses.

This is obviously incorrect. You act like fooling people is an impossible task. You really need to educate yourself.

Now do you trust the 11 witnesses and Emma? That would be a better question.

I don't trust them, but I am willing to look at ALL the evidence surrounding the issues you are bringing up here.

why me wrote:
Really? You found truth on that site? I think that you mean you found the truth which you wish to believe in. And that makes quite a difference.

Open your mind for once in your life whyme. It is a site that has put together quotes from a multitude of people. Finding what is correct in them is each individuals responsibilty, and yes there is plenty of truth and things I would say are false.