Bishop's Resignation Letter

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_Billy Law
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Re: Bishop's Resignation Letter

Post by _Billy Law »

Maybe you can't trust Joseph Smith's word. Why should anyone trust the word of one person? Can we trust the writers of the Bible? Is there any proof outside the Bible that such events happened? Can I trust the writer of John, Mark, Luke and Matthew?

However, it is not a question of trusting Joseph Smith. It is a question of trusting 12 other people besides him: Emma and the 11 witnesses. Emma because there is no way if this whole thing is a fraud of her not knowing about it. And the same holds true for the 11 witnesses. Now do you trust the 11 witnesses and Emma? That would be a better question.


You are referring solely to the Book of Mormon and the attendant "witnesses". We have no way of knowing whether their witness is true. I have read accounts that they all admitted at some point that they never saw the plates with their natural eyes and handled them with their physical hands. They did all that in a vision state. But who knows...

None of us really knows anything. We gather evidence, research motive and trust our gut once we put it all together. We choose to believe. That's all we do.

There is enough evidence for me to believe that J Smith was a liar about many things for many years. The lds church admits that he and others "lied for the Lord" to protect the church. He was a liar. He even made God lie apparently when he received a revelation in D&C 101 stating that "a man should have one wife"- while all along he and others had many. That "revelation" remained in the D&C until 1872 I believe when it was replaced by section 132. Meanwhile section 101 was used to lie to people (current members, potential converts) who questioned Joseph's "spiritual wifery system" they had heard about. So prophets lie about revelations from God and that fits into your "I just have to take it on faith" box??

Yes- I believe J Smith lied about all of it. And archeaology, DNA testing, New Testament gospel vs Book of Mormon "gospel", etc are all providing ample evidence to help more people choose to believe in God and denounce faith in a false prophet. A non-saving faith in a false prophet. Not a big loss and a whole lot of peace to gain.
_why me
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Re: Bishop's Resignation Letter

Post by _why me »

Billy Law wrote:
You are referring solely to the Book of Mormon and the attendant "witnesses". We have no way of knowing whether their witness is true. I have read accounts that they all admitted at some point that they never saw the plates with their natural eyes and handled them with their physical hands. They did all that in a vision state. But who knows...


I think that we know. None of the witnesses ever denied their testimony of the Book of Mormon, even on their deathbed. And that speaks volumes. We have no first hand accounts of them denying what they saw. Even John Whitmer while riding with antimormons confirmed what he saw and felt with his hands, the Book of Mormon.

Now can we know that they spoke the truth? No. But to have 11 people never deny their testimony does speak much for the Book of Mormon foundational claims.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_why me
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Re: Bishop's Resignation Letter

Post by _why me »

Themis wrote:
I wouldn't trust there words either, but the difference is that we know Joseph was willing to lie.



So was peter. People lie because they are imperfect.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_Joseph
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Re: Bishop's Resignation Letter

Post by _Joseph »

"Joseph's polygamy has a good explanation and the timeline of it too."
**********************************

Tales of Adultery & illegal fornicating. I can hardly wait to read your explanation of the holy coxman.
"This is how INGORNAT these fools are!" - darricktevenson

Bow your head and mutter, what in hell am I doing here?

infaymos wrote: "Peterson is the defacto king ping of the Mormon Apologetic world."
_Billy Law
_Emeritus
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Re: Bishop's Resignation Letter

Post by _Billy Law »

Here is a brief write-up on the 3 witnesses. You can find the full article here: http://www.irr.org/mit/bom-wit-pt1.html

While Joseph Smith was dictating the Book of Mormon to Oliver Cowdery, he read off a section that declared there would be three special witnesses who would be allowed to see the plates and then "bear witness" to the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith's History of the Church states:
Almost immediately after we had made this discovery, it occurred to Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer and the aforementioned Martin Harris (who had come to inquire after our progress in the work) that they would have me inquire of the Lord to know if they might not obtain of him the privilege to be these three special witnesses; and finally they became so very solicitous, and urged me so much to inquire that at length I complied (History of the Church, Vol. 1, pp. 52-53).
Joseph then produced a revelation for Oliver, David and Martin which stated that if they relied upon God's word and did so with a full purpose of heart they would "have a view of the plates, and also the breastplate, the sword of Laban, the Urim & Thummim ... and the miraculous directors which were given to Lehi" (Ibid, p. 53). It would only be by their faith that they would be able to obtain a view of them.

This is very convenient. Joseph dictates the part of the Book of Mormon that mentions three special witnesses while all three are there with him. These men beg Joseph to ask God if maybe they aren't the ones. When he finally gives in, Joseph immediately gets a revelation that says, if they have faith, rely on God's word and have full purpose of heart, they will see not only the plates but numerous other wonderful things.

So they go to the woods and first spend a prolonged time in prayer. Nothing happens. They pray more. Nothing happens. Martin Harris volunteers to leave the group because he senses the others think he was the reason nothing was happening. As soon as Harris leaves, the others claim to see the angel and plates, though there is no mention of any of the other items that had been promised. According to Joseph Smith's history, Joseph then goes to find Harris, and while praying together, Harris cries out, "Tis enough, tis enough; mine eyes have beheld; mine eyes have beheld;" (Ibid, p. 55). It becomes clear that all three of these men desired this prestigious position of being the special chosen witnesses. They were emotionally primed by what Joseph claimed to translate and then by the revelation Joseph gave that emphasized their need for faith. The vision only came to Oliver and David after a prolonged time in prayer and the departure of Martin Harris.

It would appear from this account and Doctrine & Covenants 17, that the idea of three witnesses to the Book of Mormon is a new discovery made by Joseph and Oliver in June of 1829 while producing the Book of Mormon. Yet, three months earlier in March of 1829, Joseph received a revelation for Martin Harris which stated that Joseph had the gift to translate the Book of Mormon but that God would grant him no other gift, and that God would call and ordain three special witnesses to whom God would give supernatural power to "behold and view these things as they are." The revelation went on to say that no one else but the three would have the power to receive this same testimony. It is possible that Joseph did not refer back to this March 1829 revelation regarding the witnesses because by June he already had in mind to add eight additional witnesses besides Cowdery, Whitmer and Harris. Adding additional witnesses would go against the earlier revelation that there would be three and only three witnesses and that Joseph should not show the gold plates to anyone else (D&C 5:3, 12-14).

Also, in an interview Martin Harris was interviewed by Anthony Metcalf:

"I never saw the golden plates, only in a visionary or entranced state. I wrote a great deal of the Book of Mormon myself, as Joseph Smith translated or spelled the words out in English. Sometimes the plates would be on a table in the room in which Smith did the translating, covered over with a cloth. I was told by Smith that God would strike him dead if he attempted to look at them, and I believed it. When the time came for the three witnesses to see the plates, Joseph Smith, myself, David Whitmer and Oliver Cowdery, went into the woods to pray. When they had engaged in prayer, they failed at the time to see the plates or the angel who should have been on hand to exhibit them. They all believed it was because I was not good enough, or in other words, not sufficiently sanctified. I withdrew. As soon as I had gone away, the three others saw the angel and the plates. In about three days I went into the woods to pray that I might see the plates. While praying I passed into a state of entrancement, and in that state I saw the angel and the plates." (Anthony Metcalf, Ten Years Before the Mast, n.d., microfilm copy, p. 70-71.)

I believe the lack of archeological evidence, the DNA testing of the American Indians, and the heretical gospel taught in the Book of Mormon substantiate that the Book of Mormon was written by J Smith and not received by revelation as he pretended.
_Runtu
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Re: Bishop's Resignation Letter

Post by _Runtu »

Themis wrote:Open your mind for once in your life whyme. It is a site that has put together quotes from a multitude of people. Finding what is correct in them is each individuals responsibilty, and yes there is plenty of truth and things I would say are false.


I would agree with that. Infymus has just gathered stuff that others have written. Some of it is suspect, and some of it is spot on. Some is even funny (particularly the stuff from that substrate guy). If one has an honest desire to know truth, one can find it where it is, no matter what surrounds it.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Themis
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Re: Bishop's Resignation Letter

Post by _Themis »

why me wrote:
So was peter. People lie because they are imperfect.


This is why we look at what they lie about. We look at what kind of behaviors they exhibit. These tell us whether a person has earned a reputation of being honest. Joseph fails this test on to many important issues.
42
_Simon Belmont

Re: Bishop's Resignation Letter

Post by _Simon Belmont »

Madison54 wrote:I love the website "Mormon Curtain" and it's one of the first places I landed in my search for truth regarding the church. Infymus....is that really your website? If so, thank you.


Really? The truth? Like whyme said, you found exactly what you were looking for -- the truth you want to believe.
_Kishkumen
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Re: Bishop's Resignation Letter

Post by _Kishkumen »

Simon Belmont wrote:Really? The truth? Like whyme said, you found exactly what you were looking for -- the truth you want to believe.


Indeed, and who wouldn't rather believe a truth that didn't involve Joseph Smith marrying women who were already married, or a 14 year old girl, or the young charges placed in his care? I applaud the kind of person who does not want such things to be the truth of God. And that is just the beginning of a long list of such things in Mormonism that I would not want to believe. Thankfully, as all agree, even those who do love these things, I don't have to believe them.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Runtu
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Re: Bishop's Resignation Letter

Post by _Runtu »

Kishkumen wrote:Indeed, and who wouldn't rather believe a truth that didn't involve Joseph Smith marrying women who were already married, or a 14 year old girl, or the young charges placed in his care? I applaud the kind of person who does not want such things to be the truth of God. And that is just the beginning of a long list of such things in Mormonism that I would not want to believe. Thankfully, as all agree, even those who do love these things, I don't have to believe them.


I have to admit that it makes me a little sick to my stomach when I hear people say that God is separating the wheat from the tares by seeing who will accept that He commanded Joseph Smith to sleep with girls and married women and keep that fact hidden from Joseph's wife. Really?

"By this shall men know ye are my disciples: if ye think that sleeping with other women behind your wife's back is a commandment of God."

By the way, just for fun, I reworked my post about church history on my blog as part of my ongoing two-faced campaign to destroy testimonies:

Does the LDS Church Hide Its History?
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
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