Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Hello,

I would like to take a moment and sincerely apologize to Ms. Jersey for my behavior and name-calling toward her. While not an excuse, I was snockered, and simply wanted to press her buttons. I've felt foolish and embarrassed over it for a long time. Thanks to this thread I realize this has been an apology a long time coming. I don't expect acceptance of my apology, but I would like her to know it was way out of line.

The odd thing is on the one hand I feel a tremendous amount of respect toward women, but hold simultaneously the ability to be intentionally be disrespectful in that manner. I can't tell if it's just knowing what rubs someone the wrong way, or if there's a deeper level of disrespect bouncing around in my mind... Regardless, I do know what's wrong and to intentionally be so crass toward someone is regressed behavior.

V/R
Dr. Cam
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Wisdom Seeker
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Re: Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

Post by _Wisdom Seeker »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Hello,

I would like to take a moment and sincerely apologize to Ms. Jersey for my behavior and name-calling toward her. While not an excuse, I was snockered, and simply wanted to press her buttons. I've felt foolish and embarrassed over it for a long time. Thanks to this thread I realize this has been an apology a long time coming. I don't expect acceptance of my apology, but I would like her to know it was way out of line.

The odd thing is on the one hand I feel a tremendous amount of respect toward women, but hold simultaneously the ability to be intentionally be disrespectful in that manner. I can't tell if it's just knowing what rubs someone the wrong way, or if there's a deeper level of disrespect bouncing around in my mind... Regardless, I do know what's wrong and to intentionally be so crass toward someone is regressed behavior.

V/R
Dr. Cam


Was that the best thread derailment ever?
_RockSlider
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Re: Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

Post by _RockSlider »

Wisdom Seeker wrote:Was that the best thread derailment ever?


Appears the thread may have left some of us pondering our own treatment of women. I can empathize with his pondering of one of his actions with that of a desire to push ones buttons or deeper issues rising to the surface.

This seems to be a humble and honest confession and apology.
Seems a bit of self shame and reflection brought on by the desire to distance oneself from such crass examples as William has set for us all might be a secondary benefit to the thread.

Liz was quick to forgive and forget all past transgression if William would but cease and desist. Me, I'd have to see William man up and acknowledge his wrongs, show real sorrow for them and apologize/ask for forgiveness of his offenses.

I assume Cam has desired to distance himself from William's types of behaviors, and shown the proper method of addressing his own past actions which exhibited those types of behaviors.

Thanks for the candid post Cam.
_Inconceivable
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Re: Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

Post by _Inconceivable »

I had forgotten these exchanges but was insensed the first time I had read them.

My apologies to KA and others for not saying or doing enough. I am hoping that I would not be seen as one that would tolerate such innapropriate violations witnessed by so many of us.

Harmony, Shades, Liz.. moderators,

I now there are a few forums below the terrestrial where unrestrained exchanges can occur. One quickly loses the amusement of the parody of the Mormon hereafter after visiting. Not sure why they are necessary. I think this is why there are so few that will stay or even post here. by the way, KA wasn't posting in those forums when Schryver wrote what he did, neither would she invite him to make such inappropriate comments.

But seriously, isn't it time to be done with Schryver? Why would you want the forum to appear as a doormat to both people with restraint and the vile? Sure, you could ban him from posting in the Celestial or Terrestrial, but why would you want a bottom feeder nipping at you from the telestial/od?

There is a saying we're all familiar with, "keep your friends close and your enemies even closer". I don't think we say this so we can learn to tolerate them, it's so we will be in the right position when it's appropriate to be rid of them.

my .02
_beastie
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Re: Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

Post by _beastie »

I want to take a moment to explain why I find Schryver’s case interesting. I have always wondered about the real, private impact of patriarchy on men and women who grew up in strongly patriarchal societies, like Mormonism. Since I didn’t grow up LDS, despite my long (and ongoing, via my family) connection with the LDS church, I still feel like an outsider looking in when it comes to this question. I’ll use a similar situation to demonstrate.

I joined the LDS church as a nineteen year old college student in 1976. This was obviously still during the era of the priesthood ban, which bothered me tremendously. The young elders who were teaching me knew this was a stumbling block, and managed to actually find a young black woman who had joined the LDS church, but was inactive. Despite her inactivity, she apparently still had some measure of belief in the LDS church, so agreed to go along with the elders to try and help me overcome this obstacle. I was very touched and impressed by her story – apparently she joined the church without knowing about the ban, and when she found out, was so upset that somehow someone arranged for her to speak to President Kimball about it. She was touched by his spirit and believed when he explained that, although we didn’t know the reason for the ban, it was not due to prejudice or bigotry. I was impressed by her story and belief, and, partly due to her intervention, did decide that I could “shelve” the issue and be baptized.

I then transferred to BYU, and a year later, one of the elders that taught me looked me up at BYU. We were reminiscing about my conversion, and I mentioned that this same black sister had come to visit Utah and looked me up, as well. He said, “I could never understand why you made such a fuss about n**ggers.” I was shocked and disgusted and ended the conversation, and never saw him again. He had hid his racism from me as a missionary, but somehow, now that I was a member, felt safe to let it loose. I wondered, for a long time afterward, whether the priesthood ban had the effect of encouraging racism in members, even if that was not the intent.

I have long wondered something similar about sexism in the LDS church. We all have heard the explanations for why the priesthood ban against women isn’t sexism, and perhaps it is not in intent. But is it possible that it still encourages sexism in members?

I have wondered about this practically since joining the church. I know that, even as a believing Mormon, I heard other women complain about men not taking them seriously or truly listening to them. This was a big issue for my own sister, who still is an active member of the church. She complained about how men in the church would look right past her and direct comments to her husband. When I was still married, I asked my ex-husband, who had grown up in the church, if men in the church had a sexist streak which perhaps they expressed to each other, outside the earshot of women. He claimed that they did, and enjoyed vulgar jokes about women, as well. Now, I took and still take his comments with a grain of salt, because the reality may have been that he was sharing his own sexist and vulgar jokes with his fellow LDS guys, and their laughter may have less been agreement than an uncomfortable way of escaping the situation. My ex-husband was a bit of a misogynist, himself, and during our divorce, after meeting with my female lawyer and the female judge, loudly proclaimed in the hallways that women should not be allowed to be lawyers or judges because they’re too spiteful. (He was also stupid enough to say this within earshot of my lawyer and other people who worked at the courthouse who undoubtedly reported it to the judge.) So he may have been projecting his own issues with women onto other LDS men. I think it’s possible that other apologists are really offended by Will, but just too uncomfortable to confront him, and he interprets their silence or uncomfortable laughter as assent, like my ex-husband. But at the same time I think it’s quite possible that LDS men express ideas about women out of female earshot, so LDS women may not realize some of the underlying male attitudes.

So when I see Will behave this way, I wonder if Will is an aberration, or is he a product of LDS patriarchy, even though such a result was not the intent of the patriarchy?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
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Re: Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

Post by _beastie »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Hello,

I would like to take a moment and sincerely apologize to Ms. Jersey for my behavior and name-calling toward her. While not an excuse, I was snockered, and simply wanted to press her buttons. I've felt foolish and embarrassed over it for a long time. Thanks to this thread I realize this has been an apology a long time coming. I don't expect acceptance of my apology, but I would like her to know it was way out of line.

The odd thing is on the one hand I feel a tremendous amount of respect toward women, but hold simultaneously the ability to be intentionally be disrespectful in that manner. I can't tell if it's just knowing what rubs someone the wrong way, or if there's a deeper level of disrespect bouncing around in my mind... Regardless, I do know what's wrong and to intentionally be so crass toward someone is regressed behavior.

V/R
Dr. Cam


Cam,

I greatly appreciate this apology.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Inconceivable
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Re: Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

Post by _Inconceivable »

by the way, thank you MsJack. It is good to bring to light the various obstacles that cumber our paths.

Although unintended, no doubt this thread will be a welcome addendum to William Schryver's resume wherever anyone is considering him to represent them and their interests.

This thread surely assists in pointing his future asperations towards where they belong.

For Will and all of us:
16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

(Old Testament | Isaiah 29:16)
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

This is, I believe, one of the most important and powerful threads that has ever appeared on any of the messageboards. It is historic insofar as it has the potential to permanently alter the foreseeable Mopologetic landscape. Of course, most of us already were well-versed in Schryver's particular brand of Mormon misogyny, but this thread has permanently cemented the sad reality into documentary fact. Kudos to MsJack for assembling this devastating and unassailable series of posts.

It will be *very* interesting to see how things play out in the coming months. I, along with others, am very curious about this "cabal" of Senior Apologists who secretly find Will's behavior funny. Who are the likely candidates? MsJack and Beastie both wondered if, perhaps, Will has simply inventing/exaggerating the notion that BYU scholars would laugh at/applaud his antics, and to that I say, "Seriously?" Barring any actual condemnation from the likes of Hamblin, DCP, Greg Smith (a noted fan of Schryver's), and Midgley, I think that the operating assumption has to be, "Yes, of course they think it's funny." I've already posted one instance of DCP engaging in "high-five" antics with Will during an argument with Beastie. So I'm willing to bet serious money that Will's telling the truth on this. (Parenthetically: Beastie wondered if there is a "secret" side to TBM male behavior, and I personally think the answer is, "Yes." Sure: there are the "good guys" like Gardner and Bokovoy out there, but plenty of LDS males conceal their priesthood arrogance and their sense of entitlement/superiority. But this kind of seems like a topic for a separate thread.)

I predict one of two things will happen:

(1) The apologists will cut their losses and Will's project will be terminated. (Has anyone emailed a link of this thread to Paul Hoskisson? If Paul H. is Ed. in Chief of the project, he'll wind up having to deal with the blowback once this is published. So, someone may want to give him a "heads up.")

(2) The MI publishes Will's work, and this whole affair received much, much wider circulation. (The SL Trib? RfM? KSL? How widely will this be known, one wonders?) In short: this would be like "Metcalfe is Butthead" times a trillion.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Will Schryver
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Re: Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

Post by _Will Schryver »

The more I have considered the extended implications of these latest developments, the more I have come to appreciate the rather welcome—albeit rather unexpected—ineptitude manifest in this extraordinary strategic blunder.

Thank you, MsJack. And thank you, harmony.

Had you all been content to stick with the verifiable truth, you might have hoped to convince a few more of the “much-holier-than-thou” among us (Hodges, Bokovoy, et al.) that Will Schryver has been, on rare occasions, a PG-13-rated “naughty boy” who has not shown compunction to employ oblique innuendo and ambiguous double entendre in his repertoire of message board rhetorical devices.

But, of course, you weren’t content with that.

No, consumed by an overwhelming desire to silence my clarion voice, you knew that quotes of my actual words—even exaggerated, misrepresented, and otherwise taken out of context—were not sufficient to support your allegations that I am the evil misogynist monster of LDS apologetics. To do that, you needed to produce from your sleeve (as it were) a fifth ace. And so MsJack, harmony (and others?) conspired to add a new, overwhelmingly incriminating charge to the otherwise rather old, stale, and insufficiently inculpatory list of my “transgressions” that has been trotted out from time to time over the course of the past few years.

Oh, to be sure, there have been other false allegations over the years. MsJack even picks up on one that had legs for a while, until it was finally abandoned after my having repeatedly demanded an original reference for it:

In fairness to William, some community members have attributed statements to him that he never said. For example, William did not say, "I'm married to the kind of woman you have to masturbate to;" that was Kevin Graham (10/25/10).


This isn’t the only time I have had statements attributed to me that have no basis in anything I actually said. Not hardly. It has, in fact, been the rule rather than the exception. Schryver, the Caricature has long since assumed the stature of historical reality in these precincts. Therefore, I suppose I shouldn’t be all that surprised that the desire to add to the myth continues unabated.


That said, I must admit I was somewhat perplexed by the fact that it was MsJack who volunteered to take up the torch (and pitchfork) and thereby taint forevermore her treasured (though illusory, as DCP discovered not long ago) reputation for “objectivity.”

That the ever dissonant “harmony” has chosen to become complicit in this nefarious scheme is merely a sad but rather predictable extension of her long-recognized talent for extreme hypocrisy. But, then again, as much as beastlie and liz might desire to exact some revenge for what they view as my offenses against them, I don’t really believe either one of them would have stooped as low as harmony has, and still managed to retain any sense of self-respect. That appears to have not been much of an impediment for harmony.

At any rate, the deed is now done, and there is no erasing it from the annals of The Great and Spacious Trailer Park©.

Instead of the desired objective of, once and for all, impugning me such that (in fulfillment of your fondest dreams) I would be permanently repudiated by powers you imagine sufficient to silence me, all you have done is permanently cover with disrepute your entire propagandistic enterprise.

Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive.


Just as Trevor’s “Silence Schryver” gambit ultimately failed in its objective and only served to dispel the mirage of his own false reputation, so now has MsJack chosen to break herself on the same stone. Of course, maybe it’s for the best. Now she can, deprived of any further pretensions to moral superiority, shamelessly join the rest of the GSTP women in the infamous “Goddess Suite” for a raucous session of suggestive excess.
Last edited by Guest on Sun May 01, 2011 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I thought myself the wiser to have viewed the evidence left of such a great demise. I followed every step. But the only thing I ever learned before the journey's end was there was nothing there to learn, only something to forget.
_Will Schryver
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Re: Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

Post by _Will Schryver »

Doctor Scratch wrote:This is, I believe, one of the most important and powerful threads that has ever appeared on any of the messageboards.

Oh, my! (LOL!)

No doubt, Old Scratch, no doubt!

It is historic insofar as it has the potential to permanently alter the foreseeable Mopologetic landscape. Of course, most of us already were well-versed in Schryver's particular brand of Mormon misogyny, but this thread has permanently cemented the sad reality into documentary fact. Kudos to MsJack for assembling this devastating and unassailable series of posts.

Yes, MsJack's name will be, for good and ill, forever associated with this fascinating thread.

It will be *very* interesting to see how things play out in the coming months.

Although not nearly as interesting as the fantasies you will spin about how you believe things are playing out.

I, along with others, am very curious about this "cabal" of Senior Apologists who secretly find Will's behavior funny.

I don't have any idea what "cabal" you're talking about, but if anyone finds me funny, you can rest assured they are amused by my reality rather than the caricature of me that exists only among apostates and their sympathizers.

Parenthetically: Beastie wondered if there is a "secret" side to TBM male behavior, and I personally think the answer is, "Yes."

beastlie is fairly obsessed with her fantasies concerning the "secret side to TBM male behavior." No doubt you are likewise attracted by this voyeuristic mirage.

I predict one of two things will happen:

(1) The apologists will cut their losses and Will's project will be terminated. (Has anyone emailed a link of this thread to Paul Hoskisson? If Paul H. is Ed. in Chief of the project, he'll wind up having to deal with the blowback once this is published. So, someone may want to give him a "heads up.")

We have long understood that this is the goal of all your efforts. Unfortunately for you, your project was doomed to failure from the start.

(2) The MI publishes Will's work, and this whole affair received much, much wider circulation. (The SL Trib? RfM? KSL? How widely will this be known, one wonders?) In short: this would be like "Metcalfe is Butthead" times a trillion.

Oh, my! GSTP delusions of grandeur run amok! Oh, Scratch, don't stop with the Trib and KSL. This needs to go all the way to the New York Times and Le Monde. With any luck at all, I'll be crucified right next to Brigham's statue at BYU, and you can all be there to gnash your teeth and cast lots on my vesture.
I thought myself the wiser to have viewed the evidence left of such a great demise. I followed every step. But the only thing I ever learned before the journey's end was there was nothing there to learn, only something to forget.
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