Excommunication process?

[_Ceeboo]

Hey all,

Another thread, started my dear and beloved internet friend Zeezrom, (Excommunicated or resign) has made me curious about the process that is involved in a LDS excommunication.

What is it like?
Where is it held?
Who is all there?
Do you know it is an excommunication process that you are going to?
Are you alone?
Can you bring someone with you (spouse/friend)?
Is it private?
Is it kept private afterwards?
How long does it last?
Is it possible to go and NOT be excommunicated?

Anything else I should know?

Peace and thanks,
Ceeboo

[_just me]

What is it like?

I only know from what I have read or heard from others. Women aren't allowed unless they are the accused. I have heard that there is a bunch of men and one is supposed to be your advocate, supposedly. A woman would be tried by her bishop and a man would be tried by the stake president. I'm not sure how many men judge the person.

Where is it held?

At church in an office.

Who is all there?

A bunch of men in leadership positions. The person standing trial.

Do you know it is an excommunication process that you are going to?

You have been called in to a private ecclesiastical court hearing, basically. You know what the potential consequences are walking in.

Are you alone? Can you bring someone with you (spouse/friend)?

Well, this is a part I'm kinda confused about. I'm not sure if you can have people speak on your behalf or a support person be with you. I read one woman's story that she asked to have a woman stay with her during it and was denied.

Is it private?

Yes. However, the consequences will probably become public knowledge one way or another.

Is it kept private afterwards?

Typically the content of the hearing stays mostly private. Some people who have been ex'd have told of the entire experience and even recorded it (secretly).

How long does it last?

No set time.

Is it possible to go and NOT be excommunicated?

Yes. You can also be disfellowshipped or put on probabtion or found not guilty, I guess.

HAHA! That is what I think. I am a woman so I wouldn't know for certain having never been involved in one. Hopefully a more testosterone filled forum member will come along and give you the real answers. ;)

[_Ceeboo]

Thanks, Just me.

I appreciate it :)

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_RockSlider]

Some good questions. I'm not clear on all, but here is some input:

What is it like?

having your heart torn from your chest, from most I've heard

Where is it held?

typically stake center, high council room (big oval table, seats 15)

Who is all there?

Stake Pres and his two councilors, and the 12 stake high councilors.

Do you know it is an excommunication process that you are going to?

yes, for sure

Are you alone?

Thou I walk through the valley of the shadow of death …. you get the point

Can you bring someone with you (spouse/friend)?

No, they will provide "friends" for you. In my understanding they split the HC in half, six prosecuting and 6 defending.

Is it private?

other than the 15 men that are there, The results are going to be public. It used to be required for them to announce and x over the pulpit (not the why's only the final judgment). I think they softened this over the years.

Is it kept private afterwards?

There was a guy I used to work with that was the biggest gossip in the world, Berry was his name. It was a true fact that there was a telephone and a teleberry, of which the latter was the most efficient.

How long does it last?

typically a couple hours.

Is it possible to go and NOT be excommunicated?

Yes, but by the time it gets to this stage, you likely have better odds at a crap table in vegas.

[_Blixa]

The well known science fiction writer and editor, Teresa Nielsen Hayden, humorously wrote about her excommunication in 1980. This was years before the process of resignation was created and to get your name off the membership rolls you had to get yourself hauled into an ecclesiastical court, whether you cared about such things or endorsed their authority or not. Hayden's excommunication was predicated on her disgust at the church's naked organizing against the ERA.

I'd known for years that the LDS church was openly working against the women's rights movement; when I was working as a page at the Arizona House of Representatives and the anti-ERA groups mustered in force to defeat that legislation in the Judiciary Committee, the women who showed up to protest the ERA were organized by wards. Mormon women don't do protest marches on their own get-go. To hear official spokesmen deny this--which they have--and claim that Sonia Johnson was not persecuted for her pro-ERA organizing, but only for criticizing the Presidency--and then to hear it claimed that the pronouncements of a man who is accounted a prophet and whose word is taken as divine revelation by all believing members represent nothing but off-the-cuff personal opinions--struck me as rankest hypocrisy, and I was disgusted by it.

I fired off a letter to President Kimball, demanding that my name be taken from the rolls of the church, and seconding Ms. Johnson's opinions of the church leadership. I added gratuitously that President Kimball had his nerve talking about women in the church, since he'd never been one, and all his councillors are, to a man, men.

You can read her essay, "God and I," here. It captures much about the era of Mormon culture I grew up in; each zany detail is delightfully spot on.

[_Kishkumen]

Great post, Blixa.

[_Runtu]

My sister told me about her excommunication in the late 1980s. She kept being pestered by visiting teachers and assorted priesthood visitors.

She told them, "I'm not Mormon. I'm Jewish."

They kept coming anyway because, as they told her, she was still on the records.

"How do I get off the record?" she asked.

"You have to be excommunicated."

"Then do that."

"You want to be excommunicated?"

"Yes, please."

"Are you sure you want to forfeit the blessings of the gospel?"

"God, yes."

She said that about 3 weeks later she got a letter informing her she had been excommunicated for apostasy. The weird thing, however, is they still drop by sometimes.

[_Ceeboo]

Thanks Rock
Thanks all
Thanks Blixa

having your heart torn from your chest, from most I've heard

Can you elaborate on this a little?

Thou I walk through the valley of the shadow of death …. you get the point

I do indeed! :)
Amen!


Peace,
Ceeboo

[_LDSToronto]

Hey all,

Another thread, started my dear and beloved internet friend Zeezrom, (Excommunicated or resign) has made me curious about the process that is involved in a LDS excommunication.

I thought I'd share some answers to add to what others have said. I've been to lots of disciplinary councils, many of which resulted in excommunication.

What is it like?
I've never been subject to a council, so I can't describe how that might feel. Some people feel relief, others feel sad. You might imagine a full range of emotion. For me, as a participant, I usually feel nervous, sad for the person on trial (most people don't want to lose their membership), sad for their family. It's not a joyous occasion.

Where is it held?
There are two types of disciplinary councils: stake disciplinary councils, and bishop's disciplinary councils. A stake disciplinary council is convened if the accused is a Melchizedek priesthood holder and it is likely that excommunication may be an outcome of the council. A bishops disciplinary council is held when the accused is a female or an Aaronic priesthood holder. Melchizedek priesthood holders can also be subjected to bishops councils if excommunication is not a likely outcome. An accused will only face one of these councils, not both, for the same charge.

A bishops council is held in the bishops office, a stake council is held in the high council room at the stake centre.

Who is all there?
For bishops councils, the bishop, his two counselors and the ward clerk. For stake councils, the stake president, his two counselors, the stake clerk, the stake executive secretary, and the 12 high counselors. In both cases, if a participant can't attend, a high priest may be asked to sit in the council. Before any council, the accused is asked if there is anyone present that they don't feel comfortable having in attendance. A substitution is made if there is any objection.

Do you know it is an excommunication process that you are going to?
You will know that you are going to a disciplinary council and you will be informed ahead of time, via interview and via letter, that excommunication is a possible outcome.

Are you alone? Can you bring someone with you (spouse/friend)?
You may call witnesses on your behalf, to testify of your character or to speak about matters pertaining to the council. However, for the most part, you are in the room alone, facing the presidency and high council. You can bring supporters with you and have them wait outside the room.


Is it private?
Yes. The church does not publish minutes. Those who participate in council are not allowed to share details.

Is it kept private afterwards?
As far as I know, only the accused's bishop will be informed of the outcome, but not of any details. In 20 years as a member, I've never heard an outcome announced publicly.

How long does it last?
That really depends on the case and the judgment of the stake president. It's not like a prison sentence where a length of time is decided upon. Usually, for those who want to come back to the church, the stake president meets regularly with them and determines when the person is ready. Commonly, for a person who really wants back, it takes about a year.

Is it possible to go and NOT be excommunicated?
Yes. Probation and disfellowshipment, as well as 'no action' are possible. 'No action' would rarely occur, I suspect, because the stake president is usually familiar enough with the case to not convene a council if 'no action' is likely.

Anything else I should know?
Let me tell you a bit about the actual process of a stake disciplinary council. High councilors draw numbers, 1 through 12. Those with even numbers represent the accused; odd numbers represent the church. Their job is not to present evidence or to persuade, rather, they are to prevent injury or insult to the accused and to the church. Once everyone is seated, the table is cleared, and a prayer is offered. The stake president will then introduce the details of the case to the high council. This will be the first time that any of them have heard the details, or the name of the accused. The stake president only shares details that the accused has permitted him to share. Once that part is done, the accused is brought into the room, another prayer is offered, and the stake president states the accusation. The accused can then say whatever he'd like and bring in witnesses. Next, the high council is allowed to ask questions. Once all questions are asked, the stake president will ask those who have drawn a 1 and a 2 to speak on behalf of the accused and the church. The accused then leaves the room and the high council talks about the case and offers recommendations to the stake president. Once that is done, the stake presidency leave the room to make a decision. Once they return, they announce the decision to the high council, who then sustain the decision. The accused is brought back into the room and informed of the decision.

The most common misconception is that the high council makes the decision to excommunicate, but that is not the case. The stake president alone makes the decision.

Hope you found that interesting/helpful. Ask further questions if you'd like.

H.

[_RockSlider]

Can you elaborate on this a little?

Try this one (try all 7 for that matter)
http://mormonstories.org/?p=333

LDSToronto,

Thank you for spending the time to elaborate on this. Very good information. Dang I never knew a woman would never face the stake pres/hc.