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In the discussion of whether Will Schryver said his calling and election was made sure in earnest, Pahoran made the claim that the Will's first reference to it was part of a running joke between The Dude and Will. Well, when The Dude showed up in chat tonight and was asked whether there had been such a joke, his reply was that there was no such joke that he was aware of. In fact, he had always thought Will was serious about his claim that his calling and election was made sure. The Dude has said he will come to comment on this thread tomorrow, so that you can read it directly from him.

Here is where Pahoran makes the claim that it was a joke:

Pahoran wrote:There was, it seems, a time when Will and The Dude got on rather well. (Rather better than The Dude and I did, in fact.) During those halcyon days, there was a kind of running joke between the two of them about whether or not one could drink beer if they had their C&E. The 2007 remark was in reference to that.

Here is that early reference to Will's CEMS:

William Schryver wrote:However, I’m really sorry to disappoint you, but like I told you before, I’ve already got my calling and election made sure, so I really can’t go wrong from here on out unless I shed some innocent blood – and we both know I ain’t gonna find any of that here.

Little Willy reminds me of one of those tiny dogs that bark really loud and annoyingly as you pass by their yard. I suppose noise is his compensation for lack of size and strength.

It is true that Will and I got along for a time on the FAIR board. I was never 100% trusting with him as I had witnessed the duplicitous manner of his introduction to the board, but he never did anything to harm me or my reputation. This is all to point out that I have no reason to betray him. Indeed, there are a few tidbits of inside information that he asked me not to share, and I have not spilled them to Dr. Scratch nor will I.

Regarding Will's longstanding claim that he'd had his Calling and Election Made Sure, I never ever understood this as a joke or fabrication. It is another one of Will's bold claims, just like his claim to have special access to important documents in the church vault. Do I believe it? Not necessarily. I don't believe a lot of what Will says, but I believe he means for people to believe it. And so it was with the C&E claim. I have no idea what Pahoran was talking about.

The Dude wrote:I have no idea what Pahoran was talking about.

Well, I think these are our options:

1) The Dude is not telling the truth

2) Pahoran is not telling the truth

3) Will lied to Pahoran

Regarding #1, I don't see that The Dude has any reason to lie here. I have never known The Dude to lie, and I regard this as an unlikely option. My conclusion: The Dude is telling the truth. No doubt someone will suggest that The Dude may have forgotten about it, but in my opinion this is not something The Dude would forget, especially after having been reminded of details that would easily call the "running joke" to mind.

Regarding #2, I don't believe that Pahoran made this up to defend Will. Pahoran would have known that The Dude could always come here to contradict such a claim, and I don't think he would have knowingly lied to salvage Will's flagging fortunes. Pahoran may not be my favorite apologist, but I can't see him making up crap out of whole cloth for Will's benefit, or anyone else's for that matter.

#3 is the clear winner. Will Schryver fed Pahoran a semi-plausible falsehood and let Pahoran use it to defend Will.

Conclusion
Will's vociferous defenders need to think long and hard about this one. Will had no compunction about lying to Pahoran, one of the veteran apologists, and allowing him to come here to defend him with that lie. He placed Pahoran's credibility on the line without a second thought.

So, Wade and Droopy, what do you think? If someone claims there was a huge conspiracy here on MDB to tank Will's publications, whom do you think is the likely source of such a claim?

Guys, it is Will. Will is using you, just like he shamelessly used Pahoran, in order to try to salvage his reputation. I don't imagine that you will openly admit that what I am saying is true, but I think you ought to reflect on this and consider knocking off all of this crap about conspiracies to get Will. Will is not being truthful. Will is out for Will. He clearly does not care about you, or David Bokovoy, or Pahoran.

Someone like that does not deserve your loyalty.

The way it comes off, at least in the quote you offer, it sounds like a joke to me.

I've been wanting to get into these Schryver threads, so here's my effort.

stemelbow wrote:The way it comes off, at least in the quote you offer, it sounds like a joke to me.

I've been wanting to get into these Schryver threads, so here's my effort.

That's fine, stem. And, if you want to believe that, go ahead and do so.

Keep in mind, however, that we have been exposed to Will's humor and strange boasting for some time, years in fact. How did so many of us arrived at the same conclusions independently with regard to Will's intentions in making this statement? Those of us who have been posting here for years!

And why would Will now concoct a lie about joking about it, if he had not been serious?

I am afraid that your belief does not bear up to scrutiny. Will is a real joker, but you are misapprehending where the line between humor and seriousness is placed here.

stemelbow wrote:The way it comes off, at least in the quote you offer, it sounds like a joke to me.

I've been wanting to get into these Schryver threads, so here's my effort.

Let's see.

1-Will claims his C&E was made sure.

2-Pahoran, not Will, claims Will was carrying on a long-running joke with The Dude about Will's C&E.

3-The Dude denies any joke aspect to Will's C&E discussions with The Dude.

4-Will remains silent.

5-Hapless stem chimes in that it sounds like a joke to him.

About hapless stem's abilities to weigh facts and arrive at a reasonable conclusion, we can deduce that hapless stem will side with a third party apologist's conjecture, despite neither Will nor The Dude--the two supposedly involved in the long-running joke--claiming it was a joke.

Hapless stem, did you take these same great powers of reason and deduction to your decisions about Mormonism's truth claims? If so, that answers a lot.

Kishkumen wrote:That's fine, stem. And, if you want to believe that, go ahead and do so.

Keep in mind, however, that we have been exposed to Will's humor and strange boasting for some time, years in fact. How did so many of us arrived at the same conclusions independently with regard to Will's intentions in making this statement? Those of us who have been posting here for years!

And why would Will now concoct a lie about joking about it, if he had not been serious?

I am afraid that your belief does not bear up to scrutiny. Will is a real joker, but you are misapprehending where the line between humor and seriousness is placed here.

Funny thing about it is, I don't care either way. As quoted above though, it surely sounds like a joke, doesn't it? Tongue in cheek as they say?

sock puppet wrote:Let's see.

1-Will claims his C&E was made sure.

2-Pahoran, not Will, claims Will was carrying on a long-running joke with The Dude about Will's C&E.

3-The Dude denies any joke aspect to Will's C&E discussions with The Dude.

4-Will remains silent.

5-Hapless stem chimes in that it sounds like a joke to him.

About hapless stem's abilities to weigh facts and arrive at a reasonable conclusion, we can deduce that hapless stem will side with a third party apologist's conjecture, despite neither Will nor The Dude--the two supposedly involved in the long-running joke--claiming it was a joke.

Hapless stem, did you take these same great powers of reason and deduction to your decisions about Mormonism's truth claims? If so, that answers a lot.

I would say the way its worded in the quote offered by Kishkumen without context, it sounds like a joke to me. As it is, I don't care either way. I'm not contesting The Dude's claims or Pahoran's for that matter.

Kish -

Pahoran has a long history of arguing whatever he thinks is the best, most convenient argument at the time, regardless of whether the facts align with his argument or not. It's not so much that he sets out to lie as that he'll say whatever works at the moment. If it turns out to be true, great. If not, he'll just dance some more. Your #2 that you dismiss would be my first guess as to what's going on.

My personal favorite example of this is from years ago. A poster named Soho picked up on a story where it was charged that BYU airbrushed out a picture of a tattoo on a player. Pahoran vehemently defended this because he argued the player had a change of heart post-Mormon experience and would want this unfortunate past decision to have a tattoo to be removed. He equated lack of tattoos with leading a more "christ-centered" life to boot. Therefore, BYU is vindicated by respecting this change of heart. Unfortunately for Pahoran, it turned out the initial charge was wrong. The reason the photo didn't have a picture of his tattoo is that he got it later. Oops.

And, when called on this, he just kept on dancing:

http://pacumenispages.yuku.com/topic/64 ... ess?page=5

http://pacumenispages.yuku.com/reply/14 ... ply-143511

It was such a trivial thing to invent ad hoc story out of thin air for, and yet that's what he did. And the when called on it, he didn't slink away, but switched gears as if nothing happened. Really, classic Pahoran. And why I think we can't just dismiss #2 here.