DiscussMormonism.com

I originally posed this question to DrW, but I want to give anyone a chance to answer it.

Let us say, hypothetically, that you are holding an apple in your hand. What thinking process do you internally go through in order to prove to yourself that the apple exists, and that it is an apple?

Now, before you all say "Oh no! Not another Belmont 'nothing exists' thread," humor me. I have a reason for asking.

Oh no, you aren't going to start channeling Bukowski are you?

I don't really understand the question.

I was taught that an apple is called an apple when I was very little. Now if I am holding one of those items that I was taught is an apple I know that it is an apple using my senses of touch, sight and maybe smell. The messages travel to my brain and my brain makes the conclusion that I am holding an apple.

Yeah. Something like that.

Simon Belmont wrote:I originally posed this question to DrW, but I want to give anyone a chance to answer it.

Let us say, hypothetically, that you are holding an apple in your hand. What thinking process do you internally go through in order to prove to yourself that the apple exists, and that it is an apple?

Now, before you all say "Oh no! Not another Belmont 'nothing exists' thread," humor me. I have a reason for asking.

You premised the hypothetical on my holding an apple, so thus, I'm holding an apple in your hypothetical.

just me wrote:I don't really understand the question.

I was taught that an apple is called an apple when I was very little. Now if I am holding one of those items that I was taught is an apple I know that it is an apple using my senses of touch, sight and maybe smell. The messages travel to my brain and my brain makes the conclusion that I am holding an apple.

Yeah. Something like that.

Don't go there. The apple is going to turn into the Andromeda nebula in a minute. Then you'll be sorry.

It would be safer just to respond "Why? Do you have a problem with apples?".

I don't know of anything that is 100% certain. Even some axioms in mathematics are in dispute (at least the Axiom of Choice and to a lesser extent the Axiom of Infinity).

When I hold an apple in my hand, I don't internally go through any formal thinking process. I simply perceive the apple and believe I have one in my hand. Now, were I in a more contemplative mood, I may reflect that although I am subject to hallucinations, drugs, faulty memories, and even deception (maybe it's a fake apple)--my recollection of past experience indicates the most likely explanation for what I current perceive is that in fact I do have an apple in my hand. Is that this kind of inductive reasoning actually justified? Maybe not. Hume would seem to argue that it is not justified--at least not in the realm of pure philosophy. I, on the other hand, am an engineer and look for a pragmatic solution. The most likely explanation is that I really do have an apple in my hand. I could even put together probability formulas which spell out my assumptions and give a fuzzy probability figure based on those assumptions.

If my memory or logical thinking abilities are systematically flawed in regards to perceiving an apple then there's not much I can do about that is there? Extreme skepticism is as impractical as extreme gullibility. It's best to be skeptical when there's a reason to be suspicious about the circumstances. If it's April 1st I may be a bit more cautious about what appears to be an apple.


ETA: The key notion, I'm told, is Justified True Belief. What makes it justified? I'm sure that's under dispute, but there you have it. I thought this has already been discussed to death with you especially in regards to Andromeda.

That's easy. Simple verification. You compare it against other apples. If you have had experiences with apples, you don't even need to look at other apples to verify that it is indeed an apple. If someone hands you a banana and says it is an apple, it will fail your verification test.

DarkHelmet wrote:That's easy. Simple verification. You compare it against other apples. If you have had experiences with apples, you don't even need to look at other apples to verify that it is indeed an apple. If someone hands you a banana and says it is an apple, it will fail your verification test.

Someone once handed me an apple and told me it was a "pomme de terre" which literally means "apple of earth". I told him he was full of it. It's not an apple at all. Why on earth would he try to call it an apple of earth? Then I met some dude who told me a potato was an "aardappel"--again that's literally "earth apple". That same guy tried to tell me that peanut-butter was "pindakaas" or peanut-cheese. What is wrong with these people? Don't they know how to properly categorize things, or did they get transported from somewhere in the vicinity of Andromeda?

Simon Belmont wrote:I originally posed this question to DrW, but I want to give anyone a chance to answer it.

Let us say, hypothetically, that you are holding an apple in your hand. What thinking process do you internally go through in order to prove to yourself that the apple exists, and that it is an apple?

Now, before you all say "Oh no! Not another Belmont 'nothing exists' thread," humor me. I have a reason for asking.

Simon, what does it mean to be holding an apple in your hand? That is a learned response to a specific set of stimuli that each of us has previously experienced. Our society has taught us that this set of stimuli is that we are 'holding an apple in our hand'. So, if I want to determine if I am holding an apple in my hand, I compare the set of stimuli under consideration against the set of stimuli I encountered previously when such was described as my 'holding an apple in my hand'. If the set of stimuli under consideration bears, through that comparison, all the sine qua non earmarks of being my 'holding an apple in my hand', then I am going to conclude that I am holding an apple in my hand, whatever that might mean.

DarkHelmet wrote:That's easy. Simple verification. You compare it against other apples. If you have had experiences with apples, you don't even need to look at other apples to verify that it is indeed an apple. If someone hands you a banana and says it is an apple, it will fail your verification test.

"Sometimes, Anna, a banana is just a banana. Let's not tell Momma about this, okay?"