Denying the holy ghost

[_sock puppet]

While I do not believe in any mysticism surrounding the Judeo-Christian god or any other higher power being, I've respected the authors of the Bible, whomever they may be. After all, look at the 10 Commandments. Granted, all but the one about respecting your mother and father were kyped from city codes that predated the time of Moses and Mt Sinai, but it is a nice, tight compilation. (The god of the Old Testament apparently did not have the trouble the Mormon god has today in deciding what is and is not doctrine.)

My admiration for the Old Testament was how men seeking to gain power over others, by claiming there is an all-evil devil and an all-good, powerful god, were able to so succinctly as in the 10 Commandment put their fingers on so few human frailties that universally no one is free of having breached one or more of these laws. All have sinned. All need redemption. Yada, yada, yada. Do what I say, pay alms and tithes, etc.

So, what does this have to do with the holy ghost and denying the holy ghost, specifically? What another outstaning invention of men seeking a mechanism to subjugate others to their will. Mormonism does not portend that denying elohim or jehovah is unforegivable, even if you have a 'perfect' knowledge of them. If the first vision were true, JSJr could have come out of the grove after seeing, well, whomever it was he saw there (take your pick on versions of the first vision), and denied having seen them with his eyes and heard them speak with his ears--and yet be foregiven for it despite how definite the visual and audio experience. That's because it was not the Holy Ghost there, regardless of what version of the first vision you accept.

That's right, kids. You can actually see and hear elohim and jehovah in the flesh, deny them, and yet be forgiven later.

But when it comes to that warm, peaceful emotion, by damn you better interpret that vague, easily self-induced emotion to be a witness that Mormonism's truth claims are just that, true. If you do not make that connection, you are damned, beyond redemption.

Clever, isn't it? What a great scare tactic. Without some Mormon telling you what you should think about this emotional experience, it would have no intuitive or logical way of being connected by you to Mormonism. That's right, it takes being told--by another man or woman. That's right, that means you are left with having to put your trust in the arm of flesh, what that other man or woman tells you is the way you 'should' interpret that emotion.

Yes, sir. Failing to give this emotion the meaning that you are told by Mormons, or shedding of innocent blood, are the only two unforegivable sins.

When you compare this holy ghost denial mechanism for controlling others to the 10 Commandments as a tool contrived for the same purpose, I find the denial of the holy ghost both a lame, lazy knock off and at the same time containing a spark of genius. Yes, each of the 10 Commandments has a bit of ambiguity lacing them, but for the most part are a rather concrete set of "don't's".

The denying the holy ghost bugaboo is very vague. Indeed, the holy ghost is himself the most vague of 'heavenly creatures'. And what does it mean to deny the holy ghost? How damn hot would my bosom have to burn that I would have a perfect knowledge of him? (I'm thinking beyond the results of long session of radiation therapy directed at the center of my chest.)

Then what does it mean to deny that? Who do I have to deny it to? What if I hedge just a bit, being rather non-committal about it when asked?

While the 10 Commandments are to be respected for how tight of a set of rules man could come up with that everyone would violate some of them or all of them, the denying the holy ghost thing tops the 10 commandments in that it scares the bejesus out of hordes of Mormons to perhaps think that an emotion is just that, an emotion. Doubt that and the whole house of Mormon cards comes tumbling down--so that crafty JSJr made considering it to be a mere emotion the unpardonable sin.

It makes me shudder just to think about it--about how crafty a tool JSJr came up with on that one.

[_Buffalo]

I don't think that denying the holy ghost is what you're claiming it is, per LDS doctrine. Or at least per Joseph Smith.

I do agree with your statements on power, and fallacious interpretations of the warm fuzzies.

[_sock puppet]

I don't think that denying the holy ghost is what you're claiming it is, per LDS doctrine. Or at least per Joseph Smith.

I do agree with your statements on power, and fallacious interpretations of the warm fuzzies.

So what specifically do you consider rejecting and denying a personal witness of Jesus Christ from the Holy Ghost?

[_Buffalo]

I don't think that denying the holy ghost is what you're claiming it is, per LDS doctrine. Or at least per Joseph Smith.

I do agree with your statements on power, and fallacious interpretations of the warm fuzzies.

So what specifically do you consider rejecting and denying a personal witness of Jesus Christ from the Holy Ghost?

If I recall correctly, Smith said that denying the HG was to have perfect knowledge of God, and then fight against him. That isn't what Jesus said, but that's what Joseph said.

[_zeezrom]

In my stake when a boy leaves on a mission, he chooses his fav scripture then the bishop has that engraved on a plaque next to our photo and hang it up in the glass case in the foyer of the chapel. Choosing the scripture was kind of a big deal because everyone would read it and it sort of defined you.

Here was the scripture I chose:

Alma 34:38 That ye contend no more against the Holy Ghost, but that ye receive it, and take upon you the name of Christ; that ye humble yourselves even to the dust, and worship God, in whatsoever place ye may be in, in spirit and in truth; and that ye live in thanksgiving daily, for the many mercies and blessings which he doth bestow upon you.

I also had a key chain with a little engraving on brass that said, "Faith moves mountains" but that is a different story...

Anyway, I chose this scripture because right before my mission, I finally confessed all my teenage sins related to Land's End catalogs and such. It was a really big deal to confess all of this because I had lied for so long and held this terrible guilt about it for years. Finally, I began to feel there was a chance I could make it to heaven and maybe even be a priesthood leader later on.

I attributed my ability to confess my grave sins to the Holy Ghost. He made it possible for me to do it because he had been reminding me hundreds of times over the years. I believed that the reason I never confessed before was because I was not listening to the Spirit. I was ignoring him. In a way, I felt I must have been denying him in a sense. I knew he was telling me to fess up but I ignored his whisperings.

The command to not deny the Holy Ghost is a way for a religion to increase the importance of such a being. For me, the idea simply elevated the gravity of my failings exponentially. Not only was I lying to some guy in a suit, I was also ignoring and contending against the Holy Ghost. I was fighting against the very same being that could cause a man to be expelled to outer darkness. This is a big deal.

[_sock puppet]

I don't think that denying the holy ghost is what you're claiming it is, per LDS doctrine. Or at least per Joseph Smith.

I do agree with your statements on power, and fallacious interpretations of the warm fuzzies.

So what specifically do you consider rejecting and denying a personal witness of Jesus Christ from the Holy Ghost?

If I recall correctly, Smith said that denying the HG was to have perfect knowledge of God, and then fight against him. That isn't what Jesus said, but that's what Joseph said.

A 'perfect' knowledge? Since the Brethren tell us that the spiritual, burning bosom is greater information than we can acquire with our physical senses, what would be a 'perfect' knowledge?

[_zeezrom]

McConkie:

Those in this life who gain a perfect knowledge of the divinity of the gospel cause, a knowledge that comes only by revelation from the Holy Ghost, and who then link themselves with Lucifer and come out in open rebellion, also become the sons of perdition.

[_zeezrom]

Alma 32:

33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.

34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.

According to LDS Canon, you do not need to see God with your own eyes to have a perfect knowledge. It is therefore possible for regular Joes like you and me to fall to the path forged by McConkie's words.

[_sock puppet]

1-ye have tried the experiment, and
2-planted the seed, and
3-it swelleth and sprouteth, and
4-beginneth to grow,

A-ye must needs know that the seed is good.
B-is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing

So, if your question to which you tried the experiment encompassed Jesus, your bosom burned, you attributed that to the holy ghost, and your beliefs grew, then you have a perfect knowledge of Jesus.

Deny it now and you're toast.

[_Hoops]

And a dispensationalist Christian would find your question - with all its attending tedium - utterly silly. Denying the holy ghost has nothing to do with any individual believer, nor is it even in play today.

I have no idea what an LDS does with it.