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Inspired by a thread on MAD.

One of the typical Mormon defenses against the DNA thing is that they claim that we don't know what Lehi's DNA would look like.

That's awfully misleading. Could we settle a paternity suit involving Lehi? No, but it's no mystery what Semitic DNA looks like.

But let's play devil's advocate. Suppose that there were no way to determine what type of DNA we should look for. It still doesn't matter. The reason is because geneticists can detect the presence of "foreign" DNA when it is introduced into an existing population. Furthermore, they can tell you approximately when the DNA was introduced into the population.

So it doesn't matter WHAT Lehi's DNA looked like. If he came to the Americas and he and his family ended up interbreeding with preexisting populations, we'd know about it, and we'd know when it occurred. Nothing like that happened in 600 BC or at the time of the supposed fall of the Tower of Babel.

Of course, if apologists want to claim that Lehi was actually a Siberian nomad, that's another matter. That might wreck havoc with the whole Nahom thing, though. At that point you might want to drop the whole thing and adopt Darth J's Italian Book of Mormon theory. It would fit better with the textual evidence.

Buffalo wrote:Inspired by a thread on MAD.

One of the typical Mormon defenses against the DNA thing is that they claim that we don't know what Lehi's DNA would look like.

That's awfully misleading. Could we settle a paternity suit involving Lehi? No, but it's no mystery what Semitic DNA looks like.

Sure there's some mystery to it all. We can surely make assumptions based on a number of things what DNA might have been in Lehi's Jerusalem. Sadly we simply don't know whether what we deem as Semitic DNA is that which was had by Lehi and Co. circa 600 BC. At least that seems to be true. You have something to show otherwise?

But let's play devil's advocate. Suppose that there were no way to determine what type of DNA we should look for. It still doesn't matter. The reason is because geneticists can detect the presence of "foreign" DNA when it is introduced into an existing population. Furthermore, they can tell you approximately when the DNA was introduced into the population.

Do you have specific examples in mind? I'd be curious to learn that geneticists can detect such things. Let's consider. Also, let's just consider if there be a population in which DNA assumptions seem to be thrown out the window, like the case in Iceland.

http://historicmysteries.com/vikings-in ... to-iceland

So it doesn't matter WHAT Lehi's DNA looked like. If he came to the Americas and he and his family ended up interbreeding with preexisting populations, we'd know about it, and we'd know when it occurred. Nothing like that happened in 600 BC or at the time of the supposed fall of the Tower of Babel.

How do you know any of this? CFR?

stemelbow wrote:
Sure there's some mystery to it all. We can surely make assumptions based on a number of things what DNA might have been in Lehi's Jerusalem. Sadly we simply don't know whether what we deem as Semitic DNA is that which was had by Lehi and Co. circa 600 BC. At least that seems to be true. You have something to show otherwise?

Do you have specific examples in mind? I'd be curious to learn that geneticists can detect such things. Let's consider. Also, let's just consider if there be a population in which DNA assumptions seem to be thrown out the window, like the case in Iceland.

http://historicmysteries.com/vikings-in ... to-iceland

How do you know any of this? CFR?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic#Ethnicity_and_race

There may not be a single line, but it's not a mystery. If the presence of ANY DNA from a middle-eastern group were detected among American Indians, apologists would be dancing in the streets.

Examples of detecting outsider DNA? I'm surprised you're asking that. We've discussed it before.

Example:

http://www.genetics.org/content/130/1/153.abstract

Even among closely related groups they can detect separate migrations and date them

I'm really not sure how your links are supporting your points, exactly. Care to expand a little?

stemelbow wrote:I'm really not sure how your links are supporting your points, exactly. Care to expand a little?

Do you have a specific question about them?

Perhaps God changed Lehi's DNA (and hid all of the other physical and archaeological evidence), so that we would have to take the Book of Mormon on faith. You know, like when He sent an angel to take the Gold Plates away.

Perhaps He does this because the reward is greater for believing things on the arm of faith rather than on the flimsy proofs of the vain and wicked world.

What do you think?

(I'm trying to help you out, here, Stemelbow.)

Yeah, I'm with Morley.

God is tricky and sneaky. He changes DNA all the time. He changed Cain's DNA. He changed Canaan's DNA. He changed the Lamanite DNA. Now we should reason that he must have changed the Nephite DNA, as well. He probably changed the DNA of Asian people.

It is the only thing that makes sense. Silly people looking for DNA. LOL

There is one possible explanation that fits the DNA findings. It requires an earlier sea voyage unmentioned in the Book of Mormon (with so much going on it's not hard to understand why Mormon would have forgotten this part).

Icelandic Eskimos must have made a voyage in their seal skin kayaks (a mass paddle) down the Western coast of Europe (stopping in Spain to trade in their fur lined coats and mukluks for tank tops and cargo shorts) and passed through the Gibraltar straits, landing at Haifa.

Lehi would have been descended from these. I think this may make me an apologist.

Quasimodo wrote:There is one possible explanation that fits the DNA findings. It requires an earlier sea voyage unmentioned in the Book of Mormon (with so much going on it's not hard to understand why Mormon would have forgotten this part).

Icelandic Eskimos must have made a voyage in their seal skin kayaks (a mass paddle) down the Western coast of Europe (stopping in Spain to trade in their fur lined coats and mukluks for tank tops and cargo shorts) and passed through the Gibraltar straits, landing at Haifa.

Lehi would have been descended from these. I think this may make me an apologist.

Emphasis added.

Yes, Quasi, it did. Expect your recruitment phone call from FAIR sometime this evening.

Morley wrote:
Yes, Quasi, it did. Expect your recruitment phone call from FAIR sometime this evening.

I can't wait. I'm working on an explanation of why no Nephite artifacts have been found in the new world. It centers around something Joseph Smith said about treasure moving further into the ground as excavators got close.

Do you think FAIR will offer a salaried position?