Theodicy

[_Lamanite]

Once I was told by a member of the Maxwell institute that they occasionally post new information here (this board) to test its ability to withstand criticism.

I thought I would try the same thing. (I don't post on boards very much anymore so I want to say hi to all my friends especially cupcake and John W.)

CRAP! For some reason I couldn't cut and paste. I'm providing a link to my essay. Respond there or here it doesn't matter to me. But I would really appreciate a no holds bar critique. I've struggled with this issue for some time now and I'd like to take it off the shelf and work through it.

http://www.fleetingfactoids.wordpress.com

Big UP!

Lamanite

[_truth dancer]

Hi Lamanite,

A very nice essay.

This issue is the one that has convinced me there is no God of the LDS sort.

There is no answer to the problem of suffering, that works for me.

I cannot imagine a decent, (I won't even go with loving), God creating a,"Plan of Happiness," that allows for 40 thousand children to starve to death each day; for untold child abuse of every kind, for children suffering beyond what we can imagine.

Either God sits by and watches this horror and cruelty and doesn't care enough to step in and help, or God is too busy worrying about malls, NY billboards, ocean front property in Hawaii, and what color shirts men are wearing to church that "he" doesn't have time to notice the poor, sick, hurting children.

All the excuses and justifications LDS leaders (and others), come up with to explain away the horror that exists on this planet do not come close to working for me, nor do they make sense on any level, or feel in the least bit, loving or kind.

I would rather live in a world without a divine being than live in a world where the divine being created such a plan.

~td~

[_Buffalo]

That was a great essay. I felt much the same way for a long time, and empathize with your struggle. The fact is that there is no satisfactory, faithful answer.

I will say that this religious paradox disappears once you drop the assumption that there is a god.

[_Lamanite]

Thanks truth!

A free will theodicy works fine for me like I said. But like you, the innocent suffering of millions does little to satisfy my need to reconcile what I see, with what I believe as a Mormon. The God of nature and the God of Mormonism seems at odds with each other when it comes to the problem of pain. They are two very conflicting concepts of God.

I don't believe in a "pre-Mortal agreement" theodicy.
I don't believe in the answer that "we just aren't supposed to know everything". When it comes to this issue, I'm fine not knowing some things, but surely this little nugget of truth, if given to mankind would do more good than harm.

"Just have faith", seems insufficient for this issue.

Anyway, I'm signing off. I hope others respond to help me out.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[_Lamanite]

I will say that this religious paradox disappears once you drop the assumption that there is a god.

Indeed.

The problem is that I love the Mormon Church. I believe its faith based truth claims, even when they conflict with my truth based intellectual claims.

What a weird feeling!!!!!


Big UP!

Lamanite

[_truth dancer]

Hi L,

And... so God allows the cruelty, (free agency) of humankind when in fact, such cruelty can inflict such damage on children that due to the cruelty their free agency is taken away.

So, what, God allows the free agency of sociopaths, but their victims get none?


The Plan, once really examined, just doesn't work.

Ya know?

~td~

[_Lamanite]

Hi L,

And... so God allows the cruelty, (free agency) of humankind when in fact, such cruelty can inflict such damage on children that due to the cruelty their free agency is taken away.

So, what, God allows the free agency of sociopaths, but their victims get none?


The Plan, once really examined, just doesn't work.

Ya know?

~td~

Yes I do know and completely understand. But in light of the philosophical/theological treatise of the Patristic Fathers and countless philosophers over the last thousand years, I chose to "trim some of the fat" from the argument. Especially since I'm writing from within a Mormon context, there is not way to win a free will theodicy argument with Mormons since the entire plan of salvation is based on free agency.

So what I've done is eliminate those aspects of the argument and chosen only to discuss the indefensible, i.e., Innocent Suffering. Especially since LDS scripture is replete with examples where God provides for those in need without violating free agency. It keeps the discussion focused and specific. I don't want to allow people to escape into generalities and hollow slogans.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[_Fence Sitter]

I do not think the LDS God is omnipotent. We already believe he cannot create matter and that we are coeternal (in some ways) with him. Why is it so difficult to believe that he cannot control evil, what ever the cause?

[_Buffalo]

I will say that this religious paradox disappears once you drop the assumption that there is a god.

Indeed.

The problem is that I love the Mormon Church. I believe its faith based truth claims, even when they conflict with my truth based intellectual claims.

What a weird feeling!!!!!


Big UP!

Lamanite

Yes, I think I know something of how you feel.

You know, there is much to love about Mormonism, even if one rejects a literal belief in its doctrines.

[_Lamanite]

I do not think the LDS God is omnipotent. We already believe he cannot create matter and that we are coeternal (in some ways) with him. Why is it so difficult to believe that he cannot control evil, what ever the cause?

In the classic sense of the word "Omnipotent"- The Mormon God is not. However, he has proven time and time again that he can provide food, clothing, water, shelter, etc.

Did the widows cruz go empty? Did Moses strike a rock and provide water for all of Israel? Did God feed Israel with manna enough to spare? I could go on.

The fact is, God can relieve innocent suffering and more. But won't/doesn't (regularly or often)

Why?

Big UP!

Lamanite