stemelbow wrote: I am saying, if Mormonism is true, how can we possibly see suffering as something to blame God for, if we don't have the full picture?
MrStakhanovite wrote:Because it's God's world. If we want to be consistent and honest with ourselves, we cannot praise God for his blessings and then turn around and shrug our shoulders an apparent injustice. It is God's world, after all..
MrStakhanovite wrote:Hello Lamanite,
Thanks for posting this here and letting us comment on your blog post. I respect the amount of thought you’ve put into this issue and I think that reflects greatly on you and your personal faith.
As someone who is always surveying contemporary formulations of the Problem of Evil (and Pain/Suffering/Divine Hiddeness), and theological works related to this area, I regret to inform you that there isn’t a book length work, published paper, or meditation available in English that is going to be very comforting or provide plausible answers.
My suggestion is to start getting intimate with the book of Job, in fact, make it part of your daily scripture study. You’ll need a modern and up-to-date translation of Job, and I suggest getting yourself a NSRV Study Bible and Robert Alter’s book, “The Wisdom Books” which has his new translation of Job in it, with commentary.
The reason I stress Job so much, is because when Job goes to encounter God in the whirlwind, he is there to have a confrontation. It isn’t a reasoned dialogue, rationality and proper discourse do not enter the scene at all, but it’s merely Job and God, entering into relation and confronting one another. I think this suits your purpose well, since you are happy with the LDS Faith as it is, but find yourself face to face with suffering that you cannot account for. Allow me to invoke Job Chapter 9 (27-35) a bit:If I say, 'Let me forget my complaint, I will abandon my anger and restrain myself.' I will gather in all my sadness, I know that You will not declare me innocent. If I am wicked, why should I toil in vain? I washed myself with snow water and cleansed my hands with purity. Then You will plunge me in the ditch, and my garments shall abhor me. For He is not man like me, that I should answer Him, 'Let us come together in debate.' There is no arbiter between us, who will place his hand on both of us. Let Him take His rod off me, and let His terror not frighten me. I will speak and I will not fear Him, for I am not so with myself.
Can you imagine President Monson saying something like this at General Conference? Always remember that Job was silent when God asked, “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding.” Not so with many modern day apologists of any stripe. It’s comical to me, when an intelligent man as Rob Bowman basically ends up saying in so many words, “ No, I wasn’t there, and you have not given us the full details, but we know exactly what it must have been like and why you did it” (minor digression, I think this is one of the greater failings of Reformed Theology, given all it’s typical rigor).
stemelbow wrote:MrStakhanovite wrote:Because it's God's world. If we want to be consistent and honest with ourselves, we cannot praise God for his blessings and then turn around and shrug our shoulders an apparent injustice. It is God's world, after all..
I hear ya there. Doing as you say makes it appear to be doing what those at Rameumptum (or however you spell the stupid word) did. But that's where charity comes into play, does it not? If we praise God for His blessings on us, assuming He will more than make up for the suffering of the many who suffer (giving them blessings we can't comprehend), while giving all we can to help the suffering, then I don't think its all that inconsistent or dishonest. Of course putting it that way makes me realize my head has morphed into the cartoon image of a big ol' jackass, since "all I can give" isn't reached when I spend so much time gardening, reading, buying unnecessary luxuries and toys etc.
Besides, it is very likely that many who suffer innocently lack the cognitive abilities to “learn” from their experience.
Lamanite wrote:This is typically what ethnocentric Americans say to other WASPS. Rarely have I heard a one armed boy in the Sierra Leone make this argument.
Big UP!
Lamanite
just me wrote:than why is it a problem for some random pain to occur? Maybe those are just supposed to be used as learning ops for those in pain and suffering. Maybe God is using them to teach others charity and sacrifice.
These situations could fall under the 3rd cause of pain where God develops a customized trial/learning experience whereby he can test us to see if we will be true and faithful to Him and our covenants. Rare is an understatement.
"Innocent suffering" involves the needless affliction of those who lack the ability to comprehend and grow from their pain and suffering. And/Or those situations that aren't necessary since the abuse of free will creates enough evil to try and test every human being on earth ad infinitum.
I'm sure God doesn't need to cause/allow any suffering for our growth during mortality. We are doing just fine in providing evil/suffering whilst in mortality.
The problem is that if God is complicit in causing/allowing innocent suffering then I HAVE A HUGE PROBLEM because that would implicate and/or indict God as evil. Whoa! I'm scared to even write that.
just me wrote:These situations could fall under the 3rd cause of pain where God develops a customized trial/learning experience whereby he can test us to see if we will be true and faithful to Him and our covenants. Rare is an understatement.
"Innocent suffering" involves the needless affliction of those who lack the ability to comprehend and grow from their pain and suffering. And/Or those situations that aren't necessary since the abuse of free will creates enough evil to try and test every human being on earth ad infinitum.
I'm sure God doesn't need to cause/allow any suffering for our growth during mortality. We are doing just fine in providing evil/suffering whilst in mortality.
The problem is that if God is complicit in causing/allowing innocent suffering then I HAVE A HUGE PROBLEM because that would implicate and/or indict God as evil. Whoa! I'm scared to even write that.
That's a fairly easy one when it comes to old testament stuff. There never was a world wide flood. Gilgamesh anyone? And when Israel killed a bunch of people I think they just blamed it on God. The Old Testament is full of great STORIES. I rarely read anything in the Old Testament as literal.
My two cents.
Big UP!
Lamanite
Lamanite, I understand. The problem for me is that God commanded some pretty nasty stuff in Old Testament times. Maybe being killed is not considered the same as inflicted pain, though. I still have a big problem with it. Actually, it is the main reason I stopped believing.
The God of the Old Testament drowned all of his children, save a few. I guess I don't see how allowing the devestation of Haiti is such a stretch. Is allowing people to live through the devestation more cruel than killing them? In other words, is it evil to allow innocent suffering but NOT evil to actually kill innocents?
Why does God use evil to further his Plan and purpose? That just seems like the devil should be rewarded for helping. I mean, if it weren't for satan would the Plan work?