Theodicy

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_Droopy
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Re: Theodicy

Post by _Droopy »

What is it Droopy? Major theologians publish novel takes on that answer all the time, which suggests to me that there isn't an obvious, settled-upon answer that people can point to.


But there is, in fundamental outline, in the restored gospel, and we can not only point to it, in a philosophical sense, but invite others to attain a sure witness of it for themselves outside and beyond the intellectual scuffling that goes on around the concept.

That includes people like Alvin Plantinga, Peter van Inwagen, William Lane Craig, Marilyn McCord Adams, Richard Swinburne, and Stephen Wykstra. If only they knew they were wasting their lives working on a problem that Droopy's got nailed down.


I didn't say they were, but clearly, TD thinks she has it "nailed down" but she's trying to intellectually nail railroad spikes with a ball peen hammer. Its a fascinating subject, but not in the Madalyn Murray O'Hairesque manner in which its been dealt with here by some of the interlocutors, those to whom I have responded.

In the meantime, I'm familiar with standard theodicy and defenses, and I believe they range from flawed to extremely flawed. I'd be happy to hear you take a crack at it.


Meet me in the Celestial room. I won't bother doing it here.
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_EAllusion
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Re: Theodicy

Post by _EAllusion »

stemelbow wrote:
Perhaps true, but I'm not so sure. If God must abide by the law of agency and allow others the same, and it supersedes his intervening to prevent certain suffering, then I'm not so sure its true that God can prevent the pointless suffering that takes place. Perhaps there is precedent in LDS belief/understand that helps to establish that point, huh?


I think you misunderstand mainstream theology and how it responds to the problem of evil. Many theologians accept a Platonic God that is bound by the rules of logic. God, for example, can't exist and not exist at the same time. This is because in order for the concept of God to be a coherent thing to believe in, it has to have internal logical coherence.

The free will defense, which you just employed here, argues that God cannot prevent suffering, or at least a great deal of suffering we see, because that would cause greater evil than the suffering itself does by damaging free will. Free will is the greater good. In short, there is a logically necessary conflict between preserving free will and preventing certain kinds of suffering. God, being bound by what is logically necessary, therefore must refrain from preventing certain kinds of suffering to achieve the greater good.

You now jump in with a defense that isn't substantially different. You say, "Well, what if there are some rules written into the fabric of reality that require God to respect free will?"

This, in actuality, isn't that different from the free will defense outlined above. Either those rules are going to make sense and this will be treated like a standard free will defense, or those rules are going to be arbitrary (meaning they do not lead to the greatest possible good) and this will be an example of unknown purposes. It depends on how cruel you think the universe is. You could go either way, but in each case you're will within what is offered in mainstream theology for a mainstream God.

But one must be able to challenge you assumption--that God can prvent the suffering. If He lives by rules the prevent Him from intervening in certain cases, then I don't see how you've made your case.


This is an unknown purposes defense is what I'm saying. What if God can't prevent suffering because they're are unknown purposes that justify allowing it? What if the suffering we see is for the greater good for reasons we don't understand? That's the unknown purposes defense. Your version isn't as different as you seem to think. It goes, "What if God can't prevent suffering because there are unknown rules of reality that prevent him from doing it?"

I can tell you right now, this is going to be subject to the same basic criticisms as the former is (that this is just the problem of induction and does not reduce the force of evidence, that this precludes concluding God has good purposes, etc.)
_Lamanite
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Re: Theodicy

Post by _Lamanite »

I really appreciate the responses here. I tried the same thing at Mormon Dialogue http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/54698-the-problem-of-pain/ and didn't get quite what I was hoping for.

Then again, I don't know that I was hoping for anything other than engaging in the dialectical process.


Big UP!

Lamanite
_stemelbow
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Re: Theodicy

Post by _stemelbow »

EAllusion wrote:I think you misunderstand mainstream theology and how it responds to the problem of evil. Many theologians accept a Platonic God that is bound by the rules of logic. God, for example, can't exist and not exist at the same time. This is because in order for the concept of God to be a coherent thing to believe in, it has to have internal logical coherence.


But there is something substantially different here. If God created all things out of nothing, as the mainstream side takes it, then the free will defense doesn't work at all, and the problems go much deeper than that--because the implication would have to be that God caused all suffering by creating all things. What is added here for LDS, is God is subject to laws of eternity.

The free will defense, which you just employed here, argues that God cannot prevent suffering, or at least a great deal of suffering we see, because that would cause greater evil than the suffering itself does by damaging free will. Free will is the greater good. In short, there is a logically necessary conflict between preserving free will and preventing certain kinds of suffering. God, being bound by what is logically necessary, therefore must refrain from preventing certain kinds of suffering to achieve the greater good.


The additional piece of information that is left out is for LDS God didn't create out of nothing. If He didn't organize us into spirits, if He didn't organize this world for our benefit then there would still be suffering. Perhaps our suffering here is but small potatoes compared to the suffering of those, like satan and his partners, who eternally wail and whine. Indeed, logically, it must be so. So our suffering here, in some cases unstoppable by God, is less suffering then what we would have to go through if we weren't here.

You now jump in with a defense that isn't substantially different. You say, "Well, what if there are some rules written into the fabric of reality that require God to respect free will?"


But I maintain, since the whole LDS paradigm is substantially different, then the defense itself is substantially different. For one, there exists other possibilities for LDS, as partly explained above. For another, its quite different because for LDS laws being beyond God has precedent.

This, in actuality, isn't that different from the free will defense outlined above. Either those rules are going to make sense and this will be treated like a standard free will defense, or those rules are going to be arbitrary (meaning they do not lead to the greatest possible good) and this will be an example of unknown purposes. It depends on how cruel you think the universe is. You could go either way, but in each case you're will within what is offered in mainstream theology for a mainstream God.


As explained, I think you're wrong here. There is significant difference on the basic premises between LDS and the mainstream concepts to begin with. Thus the appeal to "free will" itself carries different implications.

This is an unknown purposes defense is what I'm saying. What if God can't prevent suffering because they're are unknown purposes that justify allowing it? What if the suffering we see is for the greater good for reasons we don't understand? That's the unknown purposes defense. Your version isn't as different as you seem to think. It goes, "What if God can't prevent suffering because there are unknown rules of reality that prevent him from doing it?"

I can tell you right now, this is going to be subject to the same basic criticisms as the former is (that this is just the problem of induction and does not reduce the force of evidence, that this precludes concluding God has good purposes, etc.)



I'm not sure what you mean by your last point, but I can't stop but thinking you are wrong in tat the LDS paradigm offers something substantially different here.
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_EAllusion
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Re: Theodicy

Post by _EAllusion »

I think you misunderstand the standard free will defense in mainstream theology Stem.

God, being all-good, seeks to design the best possible of all worlds. This world, the world we are in, is maximally good for what God can do. Candide had all sorts of fun with this.

So why the suffering then? Well, in order to have the best possible of all worlds, you need free will. Free will is that awesome. But in order for there to be free will, God cannot prevent suffering (or some kinds of it depending on the version of the argument). Therefore, God is logically bound to create a world where we see suffering to achieve the best possible good.

You say, "But aha! God created the world from nothing. God doesn't have to "prevent" anything. He could've not created the capacity for suffering or things that cause suffering in the first place."

I'll offer two replies from a classical theist and one from me for you to consider about your own faith.

1) God gave people free will. The free will defense is only meant to explain suffering caused by people. God didn't cause that. They did. Natural evils are another story.

or

2) God created celestial beings unseen to the eye. Some of those, with their free will, have fallen. They are the cause of all the suffering we see. Not God. But their existence with free will is preferable to their nonexistence.

I think you could refute both these arguments Stem, but not without implicating your own.

From myself, I'll point out that even in LDS theology God is the creator of this world. And this world has extensive faults in it that lead to suffering (no pun intended). If you think God could not have built a better world than our own - not because of unknown special rules, but because he simply lacked the power - then your God isn't much of a god at all. It also is in conflict with the scriptures of your faith. Your God certainly wouldn't be the whirlwind in Job.

Finally, you might say, "Ok, you got me here EA, but what about the capacity for suffering. We don't have to be designed in such a way that we even experience that. In my theology, the universe already exists with "intelligences" that have that capacity."

The strong reply here is, "Well, the free will defense explains why causes of suffering happen, not why we can experience it. That part is explained by - I don't know - let's say soul-making theodicy."

The secondary reply is to point out that even your God is proposed as limiting and enhancing people's capacity to suffer, so you're not out of your own problem.
Last edited by Guest on Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
_Nightlion
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Re: Theodicy

Post by _Nightlion »

nevermind
Last edited by Guest on Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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_stemelbow
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Re: Theodicy

Post by _stemelbow »

EAllusion wrote:I think you misunderstand the standard free will defense in mainstream theology Stem.


Fair enough. I'm not going to quibble about that though. I'll just say I disagree with you.

From myself, I'll point out that even in LDS theology God is the creator of this world. And this world has extensive faults in it that lead to suffering (no pun intended). If you think God could not have built a better world than our own - not because of unknown special rules, but because he simply lacked the power - then your God isn't much of a god at all. It also is in conflict with the scriptures of your faith. Your God certainly wouldn't be the whirlwind in Job.


But eternal laws are outside our capacities to know, if they do exist. Perhaps these laws aren't really special rules and don't inhibit the power of God, but are rules that can't possibly be overthrown. Thus, if God created this world the way it is, and there is no way to create anything better, then He created the best possible world. In the end, it wouldn't matter anyway because as it is, if God did not create this world and put us here, we'd be suffering far more than we could suffer here anyway. So, in essence, He saved us from that greater suffering even though in doing so we have to endure lesser suffering. And, as it would have to be, He has to abide by the eternal laws that don't stop us from suffering here, in part for our own benefit, and in part for, perhaps, unknown reasons. Also, ultimately, we all chose to come here and suffer for a time for our own benefit too. In this, for LDS belief, we don't have room to complain. We chose it.

And ultimately suffering, though ungodly and destructive here, will be alleviated by Him and the blessings received more than make up for our suffering here.
Love ya tons,
Stem


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_wenglund
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Re: Theodicy

Post by _wenglund »

Lamanite wrote: "Just have faith", seems insufficient for this issue..


It is sufficient for me (particularly when rightly coupled with gratitude))--though, that may be because I am not as sensitive to or focused on the ills of life.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
"Why should I care about being consistent?" --Mister Scratch (MD, '08)
_Lamanite
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Re: Theodicy

Post by _Lamanite »

wenglund wrote:
Lamanite wrote: "Just have faith", seems insufficient for this issue..


It is sufficient for me (particularly when rightly coupled with gratitude))--though, that may be because I am not as sensitive to or focused on the ills of life.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-



I got sick to my stomach when I saw that you, who are my friend and brother, read some of my blasphemies and doubts. I'm trying Wade but like Jacob I am wrestling. Perhaps, I will surrender and take on a new name and identity as did Father Israel.

Big UP!

Lamanite
_wenglund
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Re: Theodicy

Post by _wenglund »

Lamanite wrote:I got sick to my stomach when I saw that you, who are my friend and brother, read some of my blasphemies and doubts. I'm trying Wade but like Jacob I am wrestling. Perhaps, I will surrender and take on a new name and identity as did Father Israel.

Big UP! Lamanite


I had just the opposite reaction when I read of your struggles, my friend. I glory in the messiness of life and rejoice in its challenges, realizing that both are necessary for real and lasting progression, and this even given the risks. Sometimes we need to dig a deep philosophical hole for ourselves in order to lay a proper foundation for skyscrapers of faith.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
"Why should I care about being consistent?" --Mister Scratch (MD, '08)
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