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We often hear personal testimony of people's experience with guilt and shame piled on them for minor infractions on the rules established by Mormon leaders. Most often, we hear about transgressions in "morality" but we also hear about the guilt coming from not doing enough.

I feel the church has a problem in this regard. As I recall, Pres Hinckley used to say the gospel is all about the members. The devotion of each member makes up the whole. I don't remember his words exactly. His point has a lot of truth in it.

I had (and still have) a problem with making rash judgment of other people. Hopefully I am improving. Back in high school, I found out a girl I was dating had done something a little wild at a party. My friend witnessed it and then told me about it. I was devastated and in a matter of about 3 hours, had managed to place a judgment of hellish damnation on her. She was ruined in my opinion.

I can think of other times when I learned that a missionary had to wait before leaving. After hearing rumors of moral LofC infractions, I felt the actions taken against these boys were justified. I was only a teenager, and had already managed to become very judgmental.

Consider a church made up of members like me! How scary would that be! Members encumbered with their own guilt while at the same time loading up judgments against others. Was I alone in being judgmental?

If a church is really made up of the sum of its parts (members), I can see why so many people struggled with feelings of guilt and shame. We created our own problems.

Zee, I wonder if this is more of a by-product of growing up LDS in Utah?
I grew up out in the mission field surrounded my non members. Most members I knew from school went through some period of open rebellion and it never seemed like I thought that much about it and definitely did not form any judgements towards them. I wonder if my laissez-faire attitude would be different if I had been raised in Utah county?

Willy Law wrote:Zee, I wonder if this is more of a by-product of growing up LDS in Utah?
I grew up out in the mission field surrounded my non members. Most members I knew from school went through some period of open rebellion and it never seemed like I thought that much about it and definitely did not form any judgements towards them. I wonder if my laissez-faire attitude would be different if I had been raised in Utah county?

I live in the mission field, always have. I had a son come home early from his mission for medical reasons. He served a total of 10 months. Even though he reported his mission like any other returned missionary in my ward, he was instantly judged as morally unclean by the members of my ward and treated accordingly, and the high council did not hear his report. When he visits home even now, 17 years later, he rarely attends church in this ward; he prefers to attend in the ward his wife grew up in, in town.

I tend to remember things like, when I'm asked if I will attend church on Sunday morning.

It wasn't just you, zee.

Zeez,

I think I'm still quick to judge in many ways. I think it's human nature. But I do think that LDS culture imposes interesting, and frankly arbitrary, norms and values on people that are used to compare one another. And from the outside, these make little sense or seem very silly.

I'm still sometimes prone to fall back on those norms. There are many times I find people who are drunk obnoxious to be around. I find myself thinking that a person who smokes is prone to poor decision making. Those are two examples I haven't really revised as part of my changing worldview.

But I've also found new norms and values with which to be judgmental. Don't read much? Idiot. Watch American Idol? Patsy. Like reality TV in general? Garbage feeder. Think your religion is special? Dumb ass. etc., etc.

There was a study recently that showed Americans are more likely to think poorly of a person who eats fast food than one who is unfaithful to their spouse. Why? We are developing a norm in our society about the negative impacts of fast food while at the same time rejecting old norms about what it means to be married.

I think the trick is to always work on understanding these processes to the greatest extent possible. I can't help but be judgmental. But I can reflect on these judgments and choose how I respond.

Good topic, by the way.

All of zee's OP statements contain some type of inconsistency or omission, usually inserted last minute.

Consider a church made up of members like me! How scary would that be! Members encumbered with their own guilt while at the same time loading up judgments against others. Was I alone in being judgmental?

That you might be guilty of an LoC violation was never mentioned so your comparison doesn't make sense. That is your inconsistency.

In addition, the Church teaches that we are to judge. A convenient omission. Also, someone recently returned from a party where they committed immoral acts is indeed "damaged" as far as being an eligible potential mate is concerned. And here is your second omission; you forgot to mention the doctrine of repentence and the Atonement of Christ which makes us eligible again.

One inconsistency and two omissions all of which combine to paint a picture of a Church that does not exist nor has it ever. How intellectually honest are you really? I judge not very.

zeezrom wrote:We often hear personal testimony of people's experience with guilt and shame piled on them for minor infractions on the rules established by Mormon leaders. Most often, we hear about transgressions in "morality" but we also hear about the guilt coming from not doing enough.

You see zee, it depends on the person. I don't see people with piled on guilt and shame. And where does the word 'often' come from? I see no often at all. What does the Bible say about infractions against god's word and transgressions?

And what are minor infractions? Can you be more specific? And where do Mormon leaders get the rules from?

harmony wrote:I live in the mission field, always have. I had a son come home early from his mission for medical reasons. He served a total of 10 months. Even though he reported his mission like any other returned missionary in my ward, he was instantly judged as morally unclean by the members of my ward and treated accordingly, and the high council did not hear his report. When he visits home even now, 17 years later, he rarely attends church in this ward; he prefers to attend in the ward his wife grew up in, in town.

.

So the entire ward judged him or was it just some members. I can't see the entire ward sitting in judgement of your son who came home because of medical reasons. And what about the bishop? Did he judge your son too?

If I were you and my son was being judged like that, I would have gotten up in testimony meeting and let them have it nicely.

why me wrote:So the entire ward judged him or was it just some members. I can't see the entire ward sitting in judgement of your son who came home because of medical reasons. And what about the bishop? Did he judge your son too?

The bishop is who went out of his way to make sure my son reported his mission, at least in our ward. The SP, though... he barred him from reporting. I was never so glad to see someone released.

If I were you and my son was being judged like that, I would have gotten up in testimony meeting and let them have it nicely.

No, you wouldn't have. You'd have turned the other cheek, just like I did.

harmony wrote:No, you wouldn't have. You'd have turned the other cheek, just like I did.

No, I don' think so. I would have told them nicely what I thought about their actions against my son. I would have done it nicely though. You see, harmony, your actions only added to the problem. Even now, it is still lingering inside you. Best to handle it when it needed to be handled.