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Since there is a discussion of the restoration of the Mel. PH going on I thought it would be a good time to bring up D&C 124.

D&C 124 was given to the Saints in January 1841. As most will remmeber this is after the Saints left Missouri and were starting out in Nauvoo.
I really think D&C 124 is one of the most amazing, and damning, of the LDS scriptures.
In it we learn that God has taken away the fulness of the priesthood and that the Saints have to do a couple things to earn it back. There are promises made and from the historical record we can see that the Saints did not keep their end of the bargain. We should assume that God did keep his end of the bargain, anything less would cause him to cease to be God.

D&C 124

27 [...] and build a house to my name, for the Most High to dwell therein.
28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.

In it the Lord tells his people that they have had the fulness of the priesthood taken from them and that it can only be restored in the completed temple that they need to build.
*This is a problem for the belief that the endowment is part of the fulness of the priesthood because it was introduced prior to the completion of the temple in a regular building. This also indicates that polygamy/spiritual wifery/celestial marriage was not done using the fulness of the priesthood. In fact, the church was being run without the fulness of the priesthood and there is no indication that the fulness was ever restored.

30 For this ordinance belongeth to my house, and cannot be acceptable to me, only in the days of your poverty, wherein ye are not able to build a house unto me.
31 But I command you, all ye my saints, to build a house unto me; and I grant unto you a sufficient time to build a house unto me; and during this time your baptisms shall be acceptable unto me.
32 But behold, at the end of this appointment your baptisms for your dead shall not be acceptable unto me; and if you do not these things at the end of the appointment ye shall be rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the Lord your God.

They are told that they will have enough time to complete the temple and if they do not complete their tasks in the allotted time they will be REJECTED as a church along with their dead.
*This is a problem because the Nauvoo House and Nauvoo Temple were not completed.

Parley P. Pratt wrote that at the end of 1845, "We continued, however, our work on the Temple, a portion of which was finished and dedicated." [Autobiography of parley P. Pratt, pg.340]
Brigham Young said of the incomplete Nauvoo Temple, "We built one in Nauvoo. I could pick out several before me now that were there when it, was built, and know just how much was finished and what was done. It is true we left brethren there with instructions to finish it, and they got it nearly completed before it was burned, but the Saints did not enjoy it." [JoD 18:303-304]

The Times and Seasons printed this notice about the unfinished temple in the January 15, 1846 edition (although this article is dated Jan. 20th):

January, thus far, has been mild, which, in the midst of our preparations for an exodus next spring, has given an excellent time to finish the Temple. Nothing has appeared so much like a "finish" of that holy edifice as the present. The attic story was finished in December, and if the Lord continues to favor us, the first story above the basement, will be completed ready for meeting, in the month of February. The Font, standing upon twelve stone oxen, is about ready, and the floor of the second story is laid, so that all speculation about the Temple of God at Nauvoo, must cease.

40 And verily I say unto you, let this house be built unto my name, that I may reveal mine ordinances therein unto my people;
41 For I deign to reveal unto my church things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the fulness of times.

What were these ordinances that could ONLY be revealed in the temple? Obviously not the anything we have been doing. The Nauvoo Temple was never completed and these ordinances were never introduced.

45 And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my servants whom I have appointed to lead my people, behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place

They are told that if they are obedient they will not be removed from Nauvoo.
*This is a problem because the Saints did leave Nauvoo....We are taught today that they were made to leave, not by choice.

If one believes the scriptures and promises therein are from God and one believes that God does not and cannot lie then it is logical to conclude that God rejected the LDS church along with her dead back in the mid-1840s when they failed to complete the Nauvoo Temple.

D&C 124:47 And it shall come to pass that if you build a house unto my name, and do not do the things that I say, I will not perform the oath which I make unto you, neither fulfil the promises which ye expect at my hands, saith the Lord.
48 For instead of blessings, ye, by your own works, bring cursings, wrath, indignation, and judgments upon your own heads, by your follies, and by all your abominations, which you practise before me, saith the Lord.

just me wrote:If one believes the scriptures and promises therein are from God and one believes that God does not and cannot lie then it is logical to conclude that God rejected the LDS church along with her dead back in the mid-1840s when they failed to complete the Nauvoo Temple.

From what I see, God does not specify it had to be the one started in Nauvoo. He says He will provide a way for them to build a temple, at some unspecificied time. Many have been completed in the time since this revelation was recorded. Also, earlier in the passages when it says God took away the fulness of the priesthood, i assume He is referring to the priesthood held in ancient times and the restoring of it included completing a temple in which ordinances could be done.

stemelbow wrote:

just me wrote:If one believes the scriptures and promises therein are from God and one believes that God does not and cannot lie then it is logical to conclude that God rejected the LDS church along with her dead back in the mid-1840s when they failed to complete the Nauvoo Temple.

From what I see, God does not specify it had to be the one started in Nauvoo. He says He will provide a way for them to build a temple, at some unspecificied time. Many have been completed in the time since this revelation was recorded. Also, earlier in the passages when it says God took away the fulness of the priesthood, i assume He is referring to the priesthood held in ancient times and the restoring of it included completing a temple in which ordinances could be done.

He does specify that the Nauvoo House was part of the deal. There are even a couple of references in the History of the Church by the Twelve that the salvation of the Saints depended on them completing the Nauvoo House. There is no way to work around that one.

Now, if the temple could be any old temple could you tell me which temple the Saints completed after 1841 that allowed them to have the Mel. PH restored to them?

This is still aproblem because the church teaches that certain ordinances must be done by the Mel. PH. If the church didn't have the Mel. PH until...let's say 1880 or whenever the St.George temple was complete...it means that all those ordinances were rejected. Remember, God said he would reject the Saints along with their dead. He also said he would give them ample time to complete the temple AND that they would not be driven out of Nauvoo if they obeyed their leaders.

ETA: He also said that new ordinances would be revealed in the completed temple. That kinda is a problem for the endowment and plural marriage and eternal marriage sealings.

just me wrote:He does specify that the Nauvoo House was part of the deal. There are even a couple of references in the History of the Church by the Twelve that the salvation of the Saints depended on them completing the Nauvoo House. There is no way to work around that one.

By all means run me through the demonstration. in other words, CFR on the specifying that one specific house of the Lord must be completed.

Now, if the temple could be any old temple could you tell me which temple the Saints completed after 1841 that allowed them to have the Mel. PH restored to them?

CFR on this too. I don't see the specifics you seem to assume.

This is still aproblem because the church teaches that certain ordinances must be done by the Mel. PH. If the church didn't have the Mel. PH until...let's say 1880 or whenever the St.George temple was complete...it means that all those ordinances were rejected. Remember, God said he would reject the Saints along with their dead. He also said he would give them ample time to complete the temple AND that they would not be driven out of Nauvoo if they obeyed their leaders.

I did not say the Church did not have the Mel. Priesthood and neither does the verse.

ETA: He also said that new ordinances would be revealed in the completed temple. That kinda is a problem for the endowment and plural marriage and eternal marriage sealings.

Which is fine. And yet. the Melchezekek priesthood could be restored but not the fulness of the priesthood including all the ordinances. There could be more.

When I have more time I will hunt down the History quotes.

Which is fine. And yet. the Melchezekek priesthood could be restored but not the fulness of the priesthood including all the ordinances. There could be more.

Are you going with the idea that the church today does not have the fulness of the priesthood or are you just saying this to get out of a tough spot?

ETA: Why were the Saints kicked out of Nauvoo? The Lord promised they would be able to stay there if they followed their leaders.

just me wrote:When I have more time I will hunt down the History quotes.

Are you going with the idea that the church today does not have the fulness of the priesthood or are you just saying this to get out of a tough spot?

I'm offering a possibility. There have been ideas presented to suggest that there are priesthood ordinances not done in the world and will be done hereafter. Suggesting there is a fuller concept of priesthood in heaven, if you will.

ETA: Why were the Saints kicked out of Nauvoo? The Lord promised they would be able to stay there if they followed their leaders.

Where's this promise?

Stem, please read the entire section 124 so that we can discuss this easier. I do believe I have it in my OP, it is verse 45. I will look for the quotes in HotC. Today is my busy day, so I may not be able to write a response until this evening. I will try to check in at lunch, though.

I would enjoy reading other interpretations of this section.

just me wrote:Stem, please read the entire section 124 so that we can discuss this easier. I do believe I have it in my OP, it is verse 45. I will look for the quotes in HotC. Today is my busy day, so I may not be able to write a response until this evening. I will try to check in at lunch, though.

I would enjoy reading other interpretations of this section.

But doesn't verse 49 put the caveat that the LORD will not stop enemies intent on hindering their efforts?

stemelbow wrote:

just me wrote:Stem, please read the entire section 124 so that we can discuss this easier. I do believe I have it in my OP, it is verse 45. I will look for the quotes in HotC. Today is my busy day, so I may not be able to write a response until this evening. I will try to check in at lunch, though.

I would enjoy reading other interpretations of this section.

But doesn't verse 49 put the caveat that the LORD will not stop enemies intent on hindering their efforts?

Verse 49 is telling the Saints that they are not required to complete the temple in Missouri at that time. Read all the way through verse 55.

55 And again, verily I say unto you, I command you again to build a house to my name, even in this place, that you may prove yourselves unto me that ye are faithful in all things whatsoever I command you, that I may bless you, and crown you with honor, immortality, and eternal life.

stemelbow wrote:

just me wrote:When I have more time I will hunt down the History quotes.

Are you going with the idea that the church today does not have the fulness of the priesthood or are you just saying this to get out of a tough spot?

I'm offering a possibility. There have been ideas presented to suggest that there are priesthood ordinances not done in the world and will be done hereafter. Suggesting there is a fuller concept of priesthood in heaven, if you will.

I wanted to go back to this. Verse 28 indicates that the fulness of the priesthood would be restored again unto the Saints after they built a temple in which to do it.

28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.

Notice it says "restore again" not just restore. This was something the Saints had been given prior to 1841 and had lost. The fulness of the priesthood, then, cannot be something we are waiting for in the afterlife. It was to be restored again in the Nauvoo temple.
This also throws a wrench in the idea that it could have anything to do with temple sealings or plural marriage or the endowment since those things were not in the church prior to 1841 and were not restored in a completed temple.