Philosophy 101: My Argument about Satan

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_zeezrom
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Philosophy 101: My Argument about Satan

Post by _zeezrom »

To all the philosophy students out there,
Please consider my argument that Satan's role involves dissemination of truth. How did I lay out my argument? Is it worthy of a philosophy class? Is my argument compelling? :)

Argument: Satan is God's opposite and God desires free agency, therefore Satan desires to destroy free agency. Faith is one of the most important ingredients in free agency, therefore Satan desires to bypass faith and provide a knowledge of truth.

Statement #1: Satan is the opposite of God
If Satan is truly God's antagonist, His rival, His adversary, then he would want the very opposite of what God wants. Satan is the polar opposite of God.
Satan, also called the adversary or the devil, is the enemy of all righteousness and of those who seek to follow God. LDS Gospel Study Guide (www.LDS.org)


Statement #2: God desires free agency above all
We learn from latter-day prophets that God desired above all else, free agency for the human race. This was God's absolute requirement. We learn how important free agency is to God by the actions taken against Satan and his followers when they chose another way. By trying to remove free agency from the equation, Satan and his some 100 billion followers were expelled to Outer Darkness forever. This is confirmed in Mormon scripture:
Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be dcast down; (Moses 4:3)

...a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency; And they were thrust down, and thus came the devil and his angels; (D&C 29:36-37)

From this decisive action, we learn how God feels about free agency. It is more important than anything else in the Universe.

First assertion: Satan desires above all to destroy the free agency of man
Since Satan is God's supreme adversary, we believe Satan would always want the opposite that God wants.
One primary issue in the conflict between God and Satan is agency. Agency is a precious gift from God; it is essential to His plan for His children.
Satan should be fighting free agency forever.

Statement #3: Faith is a vital ingredient in free agency
The reason for the veil of forgetfulness we pass through to get to earth is so that we can use faith. Faith is an essential part of the Plan of Salvation.
Because of Lucifer’s rebellion, a great spiritual conflict ensued. Each of Heavenly Father’s children had the opportunity to exercise the agency Heavenly Father had given him or her. We chose to have faith in the Savior Jesus Christ—to come unto Him, follow Him, and accept the plan Heavenly Father presented for our sakes. But a third of Heavenly Father’s children did not have faith to follow the Savior and chose to follow Lucifer, or Satan, instead. Oct 2010 GC, Agency: Essential to the Plan of Life, ROBERT D. HALES

When we lived with our Father in heaven, we did not need to exercise a fullness of faith in whether or not he existed. We knew that he lived because we saw him; we walked and talked with him. We knew he existed and were convinced of his existence, but we were not necessarily converted to him and to his great principles because our knowledge of him had come from external sources without virtually any effort on our part. So that we would come to a knowledge of him in and of ourselves, our Heavenly Father proposed that when we came into this earth life a veil of forgetfulness would be placed over our minds so that we would not remember our pre-earthly existence with him. Only then could the choices that we made here upon this earth truly come from within us.

Our Father in heaven then promised us that while we were here on earth he (1) would give us law, (2) would provide the possibility of opposites, (3) would give us free agency, and (4) would send angels and prophets to teach us and give us scriptures so we could learn the laws and understand why we should keep them. Thus, he promised us the necessary conditions on this earth so that we could become morally free. Daniel H. Ludlow, 1976


Final assertion: Satan desires to bypass faith and provide truth
I argue that Satan, being God's archenemy, would hit God where it counts. Satan would go for the low hanging fruit - the easy targets. The easy targets would be to give humans knowledge to take away the guesswork and need for faith. He would find ways to explicitly reveal spritual matters to humans. I believe that if Satan were truly God's opponent, he would seek to take away free agency from people by revealing ideas and events God was trying to hide. The most efficient way to accomplish this would be to reveal to humans the pre-existence and existence of the spiritual dimension of the universe. Satan would prove to the human race that God/spirits/Satan exists. Once this becomes fact, made evident beyond reasonable doubt, people would no longer be able to use their free agency to follow God's plan but rather be compelled by reason and knowledge. This action, taken by God's true antagonist, would essentially create followers of his own evil plan to destroy freedom and faith. Satan does not seem to be fulfilling his role. He is a slacker.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
_Socrates
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Re: Philosophy 101: My Argument about Satan

Post by _Socrates »

Is God fond of taking away knowledge, hiding the information from our five senses and then asking us to figure the puzzle out? How does that increase our knowledge?

Where is the rhyme or reason to allowing us to make a critical choice in the pre-existence with knowledge, but now forcing us to make another critical choice in mortality without it?

Is it theorized that Satan just acts out of anger now, to imprison our souls, because we are among the 2/3's that rejected his plan?

The 'war in heaven' is reported to have been 'won' because 2/3's chose Jesus' plan, and only 1/3 chose Satan's. When you consider that most of those 2/3's that have come into mortality will fail, won't Satan's numbers exceed those of Jesus when the final tally is counted? Won't Satan be the final victor?
Mr. Nightlion, "God needs a valid stooge nation and people to play off to wind up the scene."
_LDSToronto
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Re: Philosophy 101: My Argument about Satan

Post by _LDSToronto »

Socrates wrote:Is God fond of taking away knowledge, hiding the information from our five senses and then asking us to figure the puzzle out? How does that increase our knowledge?


It doesn't increase knowledge. It increases faith. Look at Alma 32.

Though I think you might be correct in that most people who live on earth will not make it back to live with God in the celestial kingdom. LDS theology is set up such that Satan is probably winning, if God's work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Immortality is a shoe-in for everyone; eternal life, it seems, will be for a select few.

However, I think Zee's hypothesis is interesting to consider.

H.
"Others cannot endure their own littleness unless they can translate it into meaningfulness on the largest possible level."
~ Ernest Becker
"Whether you think of it as heavenly or as earthly, if you love life immortality is no consolation for death."
~ Simone de Beauvoir
_Socrates
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Re: Philosophy 101: My Argument about Satan

Post by _Socrates »

zeezrom wrote:To all the philosophy students out there,
Please consider my argument that Satan's role involves dissemination of truth. How did I lay out my argument? Is it worthy of a philosophy class? Is my argument compelling? :)

Argument: Satan is God's opposite and God desires free agency, therefore Satan desires to destroy free agency. Faith is one of the most important ingredients in free agency, therefore Satan desires to bypass faith and provide a knowledge of truth.

Statement #1: Satan is the opposite of God
If Satan is truly God's antagonist, His rival, His adversary, then he would want the very opposite of what God wants. Satan is the polar opposite of God.
Satan, also called the adversary or the devil, is the enemy of all righteousness and of those who seek to follow God. LDS Gospel Study Guide (http://www.LDS.org)


Statement #2: God desires free agency above all
We learn from latter-day prophets that God desired above all else, free agency for the human race. This was God's absolute requirement. We learn how important free agency is to God by the actions taken against Satan and his followers when they chose another way. By trying to remove free agency from the equation, Satan and his some 100 billion followers were expelled to Outer Darkness forever. This is confirmed in Mormon scripture:
Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be dcast down; (Moses 4:3)

...a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency; And they were thrust down, and thus came the devil and his angels; (D&C 29:36-37)

From this decisive action, we learn how God feels about free agency. It is more important than anything else in the Universe.

First assertion: Satan desires above all to destroy the free agency of man
Since Satan is God's supreme adversary, we believe Satan would always want the opposite that God wants.
One primary issue in the conflict between God and Satan is agency. Agency is a precious gift from God; it is essential to His plan for His children.
Satan should be fighting free agency forever.

Statement #3: Faith is a vital ingredient in free agency
The reason for the veil of forgetfulness we pass through to get to earth is so that we can use faith. Faith is an essential part of the Plan of Salvation.
Because of Lucifer’s rebellion, a great spiritual conflict ensued. Each of Heavenly Father’s children had the opportunity to exercise the agency Heavenly Father had given him or her. We chose to have faith in the Savior Jesus Christ—to come unto Him, follow Him, and accept the plan Heavenly Father presented for our sakes. But a third of Heavenly Father’s children did not have faith to follow the Savior and chose to follow Lucifer, or Satan, instead. Oct 2010 GC, Agency: Essential to the Plan of Life, ROBERT D. HALES

When we lived with our Father in heaven, we did not need to exercise a fullness of faith in whether or not he existed. We knew that he lived because we saw him; we walked and talked with him. We knew he existed and were convinced of his existence, but we were not necessarily converted to him and to his great principles because our knowledge of him had come from external sources without virtually any effort on our part. So that we would come to a knowledge of him in and of ourselves, our Heavenly Father proposed that when we came into this earth life a veil of forgetfulness would be placed over our minds so that we would not remember our pre-earthly existence with him. Only then could the choices that we made here upon this earth truly come from within us.

Our Father in heaven then promised us that while we were here on earth he (1) would give us law, (2) would provide the possibility of opposites, (3) would give us free agency, and (4) would send angels and prophets to teach us and give us scriptures so we could learn the laws and understand why we should keep them. Thus, he promised us the necessary conditions on this earth so that we could become morally free. Daniel H. Ludlow, 1976


Final assertion: Satan desires to bypass faith and provide truth
I argue that Satan, being God's archenemy, would hit God where it counts. Satan would go for the low hanging fruit - the easy targets. The easy targets would be to give humans knowledge to take away the guesswork and need for faith. He would find ways to explicitly reveal spritual matters to humans. I believe that if Satan were truly God's opponent, he would seek to take away free agency from people by revealing ideas and events God was trying to hide. The most efficient way to accomplish this would be to reveal to humans the pre-existence and existence of the spiritual dimension of the universe. Satan would prove to the human race that God/spirits/Satan exists. Once this becomes fact, made evident beyond reasonable doubt, people would no longer be able to use their free agency to follow God's plan but rather be compelled by reason and knowledge. This action, taken by God's true antagonist, would essentially create followers of his own evil plan to destroy freedom and faith. Satan does not seem to be fulfilling his role. He is a slacker.

Does ignorance actually increase our free agency, or does the truth set us free?
Mr. Nightlion, "God needs a valid stooge nation and people to play off to wind up the scene."
_RockSlider
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Re: Philosophy 101: My Argument about Satan

Post by _RockSlider »

Socrates wrote:Is God fond of taking away knowledge, hiding the information from our five senses and then asking us to figure the puzzle out? How does that increase our knowledge?


See the game Portal2 --- The testing is for gods pleasure.
_RockSlider
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Re: Philosophy 101: My Argument about Satan

Post by _RockSlider »

Socrates wrote:Is God fond of taking away knowledge, hiding the information from our five senses and then asking us to figure the puzzle out? How does that increase our knowledge?


See the game Portal2 --- The testing is for gods pleasure.

rinse and repeat
_LDSToronto
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Re: Philosophy 101: My Argument about Satan

Post by _LDSToronto »

zeezrom wrote:To all the philosophy students out there,
Please consider my argument that Satan's role involves dissemination of truth. How did I lay out my argument? Is it worthy of a philosophy class? Is my argument compelling? :)
Satan does not seem to be fulfilling his role. He is a slacker.



Zee, this is mighty interesting - I've had a Zeezrom Day today, so I consider this post to be my Sunday School class.

I think you've got a couple of holes to plug up in your theory. Let's assume an LDS theological foundation. First,
God's main interest is Moses 1:39 - bring to pass immortality and eternal life. Agency is the method he uses.

Second, faith is the method by which God 'tries' us. I'm not sure I see the linkage between faith and agency - agency is given to every single person, faith is developed in very few. I view faith as the method that we use to come to understand God and his mysteries.

If agency and faith are the vehicles used by God to bring us closer to him, Satan needs to do something that keeps us away from God. I like your conclusion, but I need to point something out - God has manifest himself in various supernatural forms to people (as angels, burning bushes, messengers, etc) and yet, those same people often go astray. I'm not so sure that Satan could do anything that would force people to abandon agency.

But, Satan is wise, because all it takes to rob people of eternal life is to give them agency. Truly, how many people do you think will attain eternal life? Agency seems to be a double-edged sword, and according to LDS theology, Satan is doing just fine by giving us cool things to do with our agency.

I like where you are going with this, Zee.

H.
"Others cannot endure their own littleness unless they can translate it into meaningfulness on the largest possible level."
~ Ernest Becker
"Whether you think of it as heavenly or as earthly, if you love life immortality is no consolation for death."
~ Simone de Beauvoir
_zeezrom
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Re: Philosophy 101: My Argument about Satan

Post by _zeezrom »

Thank you LDST! Great criticism. First off, what is a Zeezrom day? I'm guessing it means a day you hear your my wife tell you she's going to wear short shorts for the first time since you dated in college? Because that's what just happened to me. Seriously, I would forego the CK to have a life with my wife in short, white shorts! LOL.

Let me ask you. Are you suggesting that free agency is possible without faith? If God showed up at GC and told everyone the Mormon church is the only true religion, people could still choose to not be Mormon... Is that right? Is it still free agency if God came and told us everything? Just wondering.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
_The Nehor
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Re: Philosophy 101: My Argument about Satan

Post by _The Nehor »

Your entire argument falls apart when you realize that knowledge (even imperfect knowledge) is a prerequisite of faith.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_zeezrom
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Re: Philosophy 101: My Argument about Satan

Post by _zeezrom »

The Nehor wrote:Your entire argument falls apart when you realize that knowledge (even imperfect knowledge) is a prerequisite of faith.

It is? I thought faith came before knowledge.

My whole argument? All three of my premises? All 3 fall apart? Really?
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
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