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Please assess each statement as either true or false:

1. Faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

2. If Bob has faith that P is true, then P is true.

brade wrote:Please assess each statement as either true or false:

1. Faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

Tricky. If only considering up to the semi-colon, then I say TRUE. The 'which are true' qualifier throws a wrinkle in the mix. Am I hoping that thing in which I have faith is true? If so, I'm still going with TRUE. But, if the thing is presumed true, regardless of my faith, then I'd say FALSE, because I don't think one can know the truth of faith's object before hand.

2. If Bob has faith that P is true, then P is true.

FALSE.

H.

LDSToronto wrote:

brade wrote:Please assess each statement as either true or false:

1. Faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

Tricky. If only considering up to the semi-colon, then I say TRUE. The 'which are true' qualifier throws a wrinkle in the mix. Am I hoping that thing in which I have faith is true? If so, I'm still going with TRUE. But, if the thing is presumed true, regardless of my faith, then I'd say FALSE, because I don't think one can know the truth of faith's object before hand.

Thanks for your response. So, if I had posted this for (1)

1. If ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

then you would have said 'false'. Correct?

brade wrote:Please assess each statement as either true or false:

1. Faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

2. If Bob has faith that P is true, then P is true.

the second half of 1 implies 2


P: If ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true
Q: If Bob has faith that P is true, then P is true

P implies Q

Am I close?

brade wrote:
Thanks for your response. So, if I had posted this for (1)

1. If ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

then you would have said 'false'. Correct?

I think so. Let me see if I can break it down more. If the phrase is:

1) If ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which [ye presume and hope] are true - I'd say this is TRUE, because it is me who is hoping for the truth of the thing in which I have faith. But, as I read it, the phrase means

2) If ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true [independent of whether your faith in those things exist] - I'd say this is FALSE because I think there needs to be an element of uncertainty, almost doubt, for there to be faith.

So, yes, if the phrase is read as 2, which is the way I usually read it, I say FALSE.

H.

Tarski wrote:

brade wrote:Please assess each statement as either true or false:

1. Faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

2. If Bob has faith that P is true, then P is true.

the second half of 1 implies 2


P: If ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true
Q: If Bob has faith that P is true, then P is true

P implies Q

Am I close?

You're right. I did it this way in part to check whether people were correctly inferring (2) from the second half of (1).

A subject that can never be visited too often, as it is the foundation of Deity based religion. If anyone is up for the challenge I'm betting on you Brade.

My question is, where does intellect stop and faith begin? What do we base our hope on?

I've been involved in discussions on the MAD board as to why did god take up the golden plates. The TBM consensus being that if they were still here it would be too much evidence and the world would all convert. So, God doesn't want to leave behind TOO much evidence, but he does go to the trouble of providing two sets of witnesses.....for our intellects.

God wants to convert people to his new restored gospel so he provides this wondrous book brought forth by a mere farm boy....It must be true! But he fails to provide anything other than testimonies.

He wants us to sit through endless hours of gospel doctrine study, for our intellects...so we can prove logically that we are the ones that have interpreted the scriptures correctly.

But it is all circular....there is no base to build on. The Bible is true, because it says so.

brade wrote:

Tarski wrote:
the second half of 1 implies 2


P: If ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true
Q: If Bob has faith that P is true, then P is true

P implies Q

Am I close?

You're right. I did it this way in part to check whether people were correctly inferring (2) from the second half of (1).

hey! Where's my gold star?

H.

LDSToronto wrote:
hey! Where's my gold star?

H.

So, my interest is in investigating (2) as a Mormon belief. But, to investigate it as a Mormon belief I need to ground it as a Mormon belief. And, to do that I need people to see and accept that (2) follows from (1). Of course, I assume that most Mormons accept that (1) is true. But, I have a worry that a lot of people will not see the inference from (1) to (2), and so I decided to start my discussion of (2) in this way to check who actually gets the inference and who does not, so I can gauge how much work I need to put into fleshing out the inference before even addressing (2) for it's own sake...

...And If you pop over to MAD, where I've posted the same thread, you'll discover that my worry wasn't unfounded.

brade wrote:

LDSToronto wrote:
hey! Where's my gold star?

H.

So, my interest is in investigating (2) as a Mormon belief. But, to investigate it as a Mormon belief I need to ground it as a Mormon belief. And, to do that I need people to see and accept that (2) follows from (1). Of course, I assume that most Mormons accept that (1) is true. But, I have a worry that a lot of people will not see the inference from (1) to (2), and so I decided to start my discussion of (2) in this way to check who actually gets the inference and who does not, so I can gauge how much work I need to put into fleshing out the inference before even addressing (2) for it's own sake...

...And If you pop over to MAD, where I've posted the same thread, you'll discover that my worry wasn't unfounded.

The smart move for a Mormon is just to accept that the word faith is multivalent. There is faith and then there is faith.