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This is not an appeal to authority (especially since I don't agree with everything mentioned in this); it's just interesting to hear what really good thinkers have to say on the subject.

Thanks for the share. Truth is important no matter where it takes us. (I think someone said that before )

I had no idea Colin Renfrew looked like or his beliefs about God. He hides it very well in his work.

Some Schmo wrote:This is not an appeal to authority (especially since I don't agree with everything mentioned in this); it's just interesting to hear what really good thinkers have to say on the subject.

Thanks for sharing.

In some part of my mind I felt a bit sorry and yet at the same time a bit of empathy for these folks. I think that if it wasn't for the restoration of the gospel and the faith in God that comes therefrom it would be a natural course to move towards atheism or agnosticism living in today's world. Especially for those that consider themselves to be learned/educated. I think that I would be in the same camp as these fellows (I think there was one woman in the series, which is interesting in and of itself) if I didn't see the restoration of the gospel as being the best answer out there to suspend disbelief in God and have at least a modicum of faith.

Here's another good series to have a gander at.

http://www.closertotruth.com/

Regards,
MG

mentalgymnast wrote:

Some Schmo wrote:This is not an appeal to authority (especially since I don't agree with everything mentioned in this); it's just interesting to hear what really good thinkers have to say on the subject.

Thanks for sharing.

In some part of my mind I felt a bit sorry and yet at the same time a bit of empathy for these folks. I think that if it wasn't for the restoration of the gospel and the faith in God that comes therefrom it would be a natural course to move towards atheism or agnosticism living in today's world. Especially for those that consider themselves to be learned/educated. I think that I would be in the same camp as these fellows (I think there was one woman in the series, which is interesting in and of itself) if I didn't see the restoration of the gospel as being the best answer out there to suspend disbelief in God and have at least a modicum of faith.

Here's another good series to have a gander at.

http://www.closertotruth.com/

Regards,
MG

As a quick follow up, yesterday I was at our local Border's store looking at the discounted books (they're closing all their stores in Sept.) and found this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Have-Enough- ... 1581345615

I'm just starting to read it, but it looks like it will be a good read.

Regards,
MG

mentalgymnast wrote:In some part of my mind I felt a bit sorry and yet at the same time a bit of empathy for these folks.

You nailed a description of exactly how I feel toward good natured religious folk 99% of the time.

I suppose if you feel good about your own position and perceive others living in unnecessary pain that would be avoided if they just changed their outlook, it's natural to feel sympathy for them. So at least we can agree on that.

Thanks for your post.

mentalgymnast wrote:As a quick follow up, yesterday I was at our local Border's store looking at the discounted books (they're closing all their stores in Sept.) and found this one:

http://www.amazon.com/don't-Have-Enough ... 1581345615

I'm just starting to read it, but it looks like it will be a good read.

Regards,
MG

I have a close friend (who's a militant christian) who's reading that in response to our conversations about god, religion, etc. and a speech I gave on why I'm an atheist (we're both in a public speaking club). He gave a counter speech named after that book. I am, of course, familiar with all the arguments he gave in his speech backed up by the book, and they aren't very compelling to me, but I'm glad he's at least becoming aware of the arguments himself.

He's definitely one of those guys I mentioned earlier that I perceive in unnecessary pain. It hurts me. I love him like a brother.

mentalgymnast wrote:I'm just starting to read it, but it looks like it will be a good read.

I own it but I haven't read it yet.

I didn't know you could talk about religion at the Toastmasters.

I've read It Don't have Enough Faith to be an Atheist. Without hyperbole, it's one of the worst works of apologetics I've read and plays a role in setting the standard for what I think of as bad apologetics. It's fundamentalist boilerplate similar to what you'd find from likeminded sources - with a standard focus on design arguments and anti-evolution material, resurrection arguments, etc. - , but exceptionally poor in its execution. If I recall, at one point Geisler argues something to the effect of "If there is no God, then why is there something rather than nothing? Either someone created something or no one did. If you believe something exists, then you don't have enough faith to be an atheist."

With that, I'm going to recommend strongly that Stak read it so he can see Geisler's take on Hume and Kant. It's epic.