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I wonder how long would an essay be on "What it's like to be a computer"?

I think that there is an analogy to be had here; What makes computers(A.I.) unique from each other is quantity of stored information and method/speed of accessing this information. At the core though.....well, there is no *core*, no essence of self awareness, no comprehension that is ageless, timeless and uncreated.

At the core of the human though is a self awareness that IS uncreated and timeless. What makes humans unique from each other is acquired knowledge and the inherited physical capabilities of accessing that knowledge.

Humans cannot be judged and sorted by rating this peripheral acquired knowledge, any more than can a computer be sorted and punished. They can only be rated and sorted by assessing their core.

The problem being, locating the genesis of the souls core is a little elusive.

So, here are some parameters we have to work with based on a Deity caused, reward and punishment system:

Entities are separate and individual.
Entities have unique personalities.
Entity personalities run the gambit of the scale from selfishness, laziness, lack of moral integrity.....to a spotless unblemished record of moral worthiness and self control.
Entities must be rated and sorted because of this.


I start off the Inquisition by stating that: IF God creates entities and inserts them into bodies at or around the birth of the mortal body, logic says these entities are all created equal, blank slate, identical and perfect. Why would god create brand new entities with say, more integrity or ambition than another? And since they are equal, identical and perfect, why would they need sorted?

The LDS apologetic/*you* say: But we don't believe in "blank slate" theory. We have the pre-existence, and this is where spirits get their personalities *before* being inserted into the mortal.

I say: OK, but since building personalities is in essence tacked on experiences, which can't describe the core, God must insert "Blank slate" cores into spirit bodies.

You say: No, The core comes from the "intelligence" realm. Entities MUST bring something with them otherwise they would be "blank slate" and not culpable, not deserving of payments, unaccountable for their actions.

I say: Well, then lets try to locate how they developed personalities in here. Did God put a core into a vehicle in here? Wouldn't one need some sort of physical body with sensory equipment to interact with it's realm?

You say? NO. this is the beginning. But, actually there is no beginning. Entities at their core have always existed exactly as they are. They are uncreated. And that goes for god as well. He has always existed as an uncreated *peer*. They interact and communicate with each other through some method we don't understand.

I say: So, entities have always existed as is, with complex developed diverse personalities acquired through NO cause of their own. They have existed for eternity this way, outside of space/time, and VAST numbers of them have personality issues that require they be inserted into space/time, tested, rated and sorted?

You say: Correct.

I say: This system doesn't appear to have any oversight committee. Who is in charge? I don't see any separate entity, energy or force in charge and responsible. God appears to be simply a product of the system who through NO cause of his own finds himself to be a steward of a subsystem. It doesn't appear that he has any stake in the game. He isn't technically our father. His job isn't to assist us through the system, but to be in charge of the rating game.

You say: aaarrggg....

tana39 wrote:
I wonder how long would an essay be on "What it's like to be a computer"?

I think that there is an analogy to be had here; What makes computers(A.I.) unique from each other is quantity of stored information and method/speed of accessing this information. At the core though.....well, there is no *core*, no essence of self awareness, no comprehension that is ageless, timeless and uncreated.

What matters is not storage but the software being run. This could be more or less sublte and complex. Indeed, in principle there is no limit to how subtle, interesting and self modifying and self referring such software might be.

At the core of the human though is a self awareness that IS uncreated and timeless.

An easily adopted intuition for sure but I see no real evidence for it and no need to assume it. It also really has no explanitory power.

The subtle interactions of matter, energy and information in the form of biology, nervous system and socialty seems enough to account for personhood and the question of why we have spiritualistic intuitions about a soul and immaterial dimensions of awareness is just a matter for psychology. Those intuitions are dubious.

This system doesn't appear to have any oversight committee.

God values free agency so He chooses not to oversee everything.

I couldn't get past the "searchering".

Heh.

VRDRC

Tarski wrote:

tana39 wrote:
I wonder how long would an essay be on "What it's like to be a computer"?

I think that there is an analogy to be had here; What makes computers(A.I.) unique from each other is quantity of stored information and method/speed of accessing this information. At the core though.....well, there is no *core*, no essence of self awareness, no comprehension that is ageless, timeless and uncreated.

What matters is not storage but the software being run. This could be more or less sublte and complex. Indeed, in principle there is no limit to how subtle, interesting and self modifying and self referring such software might be.

At the core of the human though is a self awareness that IS uncreated and timeless.

An easily adopted intuition for sure but I see no real evidence for it and no need to assume it. It also really has no explanitory power.

The subtle interactions of matter, energy and information in the form of biology, nervous system and socialty seems enough to account for personhood and the question of why we have spiritualistic intuitions about a soul and immaterial dimensions of awareness is just a matter for psychology. Those intuitions are dubious.

Well, I wish now I woulda edited that OP more than I did. I recycled it from a posting on MAD a year ago. It was in response to someones OP "What it's like to be a bat".

The point I was shooting for with this OP was more toward pointing out the futility of locating the genesis of the soul....and less toward pickin a fight with a Materialist/Naturalist.

The only feeble argument I have toward debating the Materialist is the one I tried on you a year ago, "Who has the advantage, the Materialist or the spiritualist, (in this question only)"

The gist of it went something like, The materialist by definition can never approach composing an equation to explain existence/first cause. Whereas the Spiritualist posits, I have no first cause either, so logic says it must be something other....than a cause and effect ruled existence.

Since my philosophy lies somewhere between the two polars, I don't believe in deity caused existence, or even in separate souls....and I don't believe the universe is simply mindless interaction of particles.....I feel this philosophy affords the bearer the privilege of dodging *first cause* issues....I think.

ajax18 wrote:

This system doesn't appear to have any oversight committee.

God values free agency so He chooses not to oversee everything.

In the OP I was going for an obviously muddled presentation of the theme of locating the beginning of the soul....The LDS definition.

I started it in somewhat of a response to the thread on here "A question for the Atheist".

I tend to think that one can't rely on ones senses or promptings of the spirit to comprehend existence. That all we really have is deductive logic and thought experiment. So, in an effort to do that I posted my thought experiment on the logistics of locating the point where a soul becomes unique to itself and responsible for it's action. I believe that it is completely undefinable.

For a Deity caused, reward and punishment system to work, the soul must be ultimately responsible for creating itself.

The only alternative to this I can see, if entities do *not* bring something with them from the intelligence realm, that would indicate that this intelligence realm is *not* an additional estate where intelligence is eternal and uncreated into separate sentient beings. Rather this realm isn't even a realm, it's simply a stockpile of unorganized intelligence substance. Which in my opinion doesn't really add up with the scripture that says intelligence wasn't created or made and was also in the beginning with the father. To say that the eternal components *when assembled* constitutes a sentient entity having been there in the beginning/uncreated is a stretch of logic.

It also begs the question: If god was at one time also *unorganized*....and there is no single entity energy or force in charge, how did he get organized?

The alternative then to explain how diverse core personalities came into existence, to then be inserted into spirit bodies would entail some form of a *roll of the dice*. (Think Einstein) Even with this scenario though how is the entity responsible for creating itself and the potential *lack* of integrity that defines it? How could one ever change this core/hard drive by mere tacked on experiences?

*This is why I favor a system where core awareness is shared, indivisible and un-impeachable*

tana39 wrote:
*This is why I favor a system where core awareness is shared, indivisible and un-impeachable*

We are co-responsible? Your sin is my sin? How's that? It defeats any need for mercy and grace and sanctification and all the elements of true religion. We are already as much a part of God as we ever were or ever can be?

D&C 93 explains

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

Our existence commenced when God placed truth into an independent sphere of existence. Taking it from where it was having not been created nor made.

A sudden thought reflects upon this oddly. The truth that God placed into independent existence could be the laws of physics and other eternal principles. Then he says its the same for intelligences. Hmm?

I am one who believes that we have been on an eternal round that returns us to the Light of Truth. Forced back if we rebel unto Perdition and by choice when we had enough of being less than we like. So we would preserve somehow the imprint of each passage. I think devils now repeat and are devils again. Eventually some move on.

I just do not believe any kingdom piles up infinite numbers from worlds without number. I favor that we have the right to cash in all the gifts of God that enable us to remain independent and return to the light where we can be one with God again trusting that we will come out again and possible fair better. I expect that this is not a quick return. One shot per roll of eternity. From one eternity to the next.

[quote="Nightlion"][quote="tana39"]


Our existence commenced when God placed truth into an independent sphere of existence. Taking it from where it was having not been created nor made.
quote]


But I don't believe this solves the riddle of how an entity can be held responsible for the personality that was distributed to it.



An entity cannot be the sum of it's parts. It cannot be an amalgamate of experiences and acquired knowledge. That would put it on a linear existence. It must have some form of underlying hard drive. How did it acquire this unique hard drive? Whether A Deity conjured up this core at the birth of the mortal, or the birth of the spirit body, or assembled it from unorganized " Intelligence matter", it, the entity is not responsible for creating it's own personality....and therefor can never be held accountable....and therefor, Deity based religion fails.

Tana,

Are you familiar with Douglas Hofstadter's book, Gödel Escher Bach? It sounds like you might enjoy it, and find something insightful in it.