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As far as I'm concerned, the verdict is in. Warren Jeffs is far, far worse than Joseph Smith.

I don't know if any of you have been following his trial, but there have been a couple of audio tapes entered as evidence. On one audio tape, he's instructing six of his "wives" on how to please him sexually.

An audiotape played Tuesday at the trial of polygamous leader Warren Jeffs revealed he forced his wives to cooperate with each other—even in sex. Prosecutors said one of the girls present when the tape was recorded is the girl he is accused of sexually abusing and “marrying” when she was 14 years old. Although Jeffs’ language is vague, he says “the fullness of Sarah is for quorums of wives to be with me to be a comfort … yes, even physically, for I need more than one wife to be with me at a time.” In the tape, he says, “OK, six women. I wish I had a seventh.” Then the sound of a zipper is heard, and Jeffs tells the women with him to change into robes. Prosecutors are expected to play a tape of Jeffs having sex with a 12-year-old he is also accused of abusing.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/201 ... rcion.html

A jaw-dropping audio tape played in Warren Jeffs' sexual assault trial Tuesday shows the church leader instructing his sister wives that they must 'work together' to please him sexually.

The 90-minute segment details how the young brides should become 'so natural as clothed as unclothed' and always shower before getting near him.

Mr Jeffs is also heard instructing the woman on how to maintain their pubic hair, and a woman is heard showing the other wives how to properly shave their armpits.

He says on the tape: 'No one sits around, everyone assists each other.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -wife.html


He also taped himself having sex with the twelve year old while two other wives watched:

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2011/au ... ests-case/

What is really tragic about this is that even with this disgusting evidence presented, his followers will STILL likely believe he's a prophet.

Darn, the penguin beat me by two minutes.

beastie,

I don't know if there is enough evidence to make the determination that Jeffs is worse than Smith. We simply know so little about the details of Smith's liaisons. I do believe that Smith and Jeffs employed the same methods to obtain the same results.

I will say, however, that if you were to gather the Saints of Nauvoo, at least those who had been initiated into the inner-circle of the polygamous, and transplant them to the year 2000, it is certain to me that they would find kindred spirits and familiar environs in the FLDS church and be completely mystified by the Brighamite church.

*cries*

What the “F”? Seriously!

beastie wrote:As far as I'm concerned, the verdict is in. Warren Jeffs is far, far worse than Joseph Smith.

I don't know if any of you have been following his trial, but there have been a couple of audio tapes entered as evidence. On one audio tape, he's instructing six of his "wives" on how to please him sexually.

I agree with beefcalf. We just don't know all the details of Joseph's affairs. They also live in different times. Back then it was much easier to get away with things. There was no way to record events like we do today. Joseph also was the one to start all of this, so I think Joseph may be worse. How would things have gone if Joseph had not been killed and moved the church out west? To many unknowns.

beastie,

Yes, I have been half heartedly following the Jeffs trial. I read the account you provided earlier today.

Let me ask you a couple of things...

1. Do you think it possible that Joseph Smith instructed his wives on how to please him at least in a one:one setting?

2. Do you think that the wives of Joseph Smith were essentially sworn to secrecy?

3. Do you think that if Joseph Smith had access to such technology, that he might have recorded his sexual encounters with his wives?

If your answer is yes to the above questions, how is Jeffs worse than Joseph Smith?

There is no evidence that Smith had sex with multiple women at one time.

There is no evidence that other wives watched him having sex with another wife.

Also, there is only one case that involved a child of fourteen, and the evidence is questionable whether or not Smith actually had sex with Helen Mar before her death.

That's why I think Jeffs is worse than Smith.

Of course, Smith started the whole mess, and Jeffs is his Frankenstein.

beastie wrote:There is no evidence that Smith had sex with multiple women at one time.

There is no evidence that other wives watched him having sex with another wife.

No evidence, but should it matter? If they are consenting adults, I fail to see how it is a sin from a non-religious perspective, and from an LDS perspective it would be wrong with one or more. The real problem here is the manipulation and Joseph was very involved in this, as well as being the guy who got the whole ball rolling both with polygamy and starting of a new religion.

Also, there is only one case that involved a child of fourteen, and the evidence is questionable whether or not Smith actually had sex with Helen Mar before her death.

Again though, Joseph started it and married a 14 year old, so why should those who come after, and believe polygamy is God's command, think 14 or even younger is wrong? I think we could probably find many examples in BY polygamous times of very young girls marrying. In many ways I can excuse Jeffs becuase he grew up in this environment, while Joseph would have known it was wrong, at least probably at the beginning. Can't underestimate the power to convince oneself.

Helen Mar Kimball was 14, as sick as I think this is, there are several states today that have 14 as their age of consent. With that said, I think the tactics Joseph used to get all those women to marry him are deplorable.

Jeffs used the same tactics, but he married girls as young 12.


I think both of these men are disgusting, but it seems that the girls Jeffs was going after were much younger. That makes him a little more of a monster in my book, but it is a very, very, very close race.

Not sure that many polygamists have group sex with their wives. In Islam it is forbidden for one wife to see another wife nude, much less be engaged in sex at the same time with the husband or, as one would assume from most threesomes, sex with the other woman. I have read Islamic sites that actually question if Jesus ever gave the "Parable of the Ten Virgins" as it can imply that the groom had relations with the five virtuous brides at the same time.