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Obviously the FLDS scandal is embarrassing for the LDS Church. But I think what hasn't been discussed so much is what it reveals about the problematic nature of the Mormon methodology for discovering truth - that is, praying for an answer from God. These FLDS did so, using the same methodology that Mormons use. God told them that Jeffs was their prophet. Obviously, this method is not a reliable means to gain accurate information. And that is the most problematic thing for Mormonism about the Warren Jeffs affair.

Mormons often defend themselves from similar comparisons with other religions, saying the methodology isn't the same. They say that other people of faith may have spiritual experiences, but they're not using the Moroni 10:3 method, which means it's not a truth test. Well, that won't work here. The FLDS use the same method, with very different results. It's not reliable.

Thoughts?

Well, we didn't really need the Jeffs things to tell us that, but... yeah. No doubt about it.

Whatever members tell themselves in order to resolve this issue internally will be, without a doubt, a lie. And the mo world will continue to turn on its axis of lies.

Buffalo wrote:Obviously the FLDS scandal is embarrassing for the LDS Church. But I think what hasn't been discussed so much is what it reveals about the problematic nature of the Mormon methodology for discovering truth - that is, praying for an answer from God. These FLDS did so, using the same methodology that Mormons use. God told them that Jeffs was their prophet. Obviously, this method is not a reliable means to gain accurate information. And that is the most problematic thing for Mormonism about the Warren Jeffs affair.

Mormons often defend themselves from similar comparisons with other religions, saying the methodology isn't the same. They say that other people of faith may have spiritual experiences, but they're not using the Moroni 10:3 method, which means it's not a truth test. Well, that won't work here. The FLDS use the same method, with very different results. It's not reliable.

Thoughts?

Buffalo,

I think that this line of reasoning has great power. Time will tell, but this argument might be an effective way to break through the Joseph Smith delusion. Using Moroni's promise, taken directly from the Book of Mormon, these thousands upon thousands of believers got... the wrong answer. Over and over again.

For the sake of argument, let's assume the Book of Mormon really is the divine word of God, truly translated by Joseph Smith. And let's assume that Moroni's promise found therein really is the method that God wants us to use in order to know 'the truth of all things'. These people used that exact, prescribed method, and consistently received wrong answer after wrong answer after wrong answer.

For that small percentage of believing Latter-Day Saints for whom logic and rational thinking still mean something, this should serve as a wake-up call.

beefcalf wrote:For that small percentage of believing Latter-Day Saints for whom logic and rational thinking still mean something, this should serve as a wake-up call.

First, they must make the connection. Most don't. They believe the church when it says "they are not us", and go no deeper. They just shake their heads at those poor delusional FLDS and their Pathetic Prophet... because they are not US! (if they even know about it. It didn't make a big splash in my newspaper and certainly wasn't on the 6 o'clock news.)

This certainly contradicts the idea that if one prays about and receives an answer that the Book of Mormon is true then that automatically implies that the LDS church is true. Warren Jeffs believes in the Book of Mormon, hell he entered the entire book into the record in his trial, and read from it as part of his defense.

Sethbag wrote:This certainly contradicts the idea that if one prays about and receives an answer that the Book of Mormon is true then that automatically implies that the LDS church is true. Warren Jeffs believes in the Book of Mormon, hell he entered the entire book into the record in his trial, and read from it as part of his defense.

I wonder how many active tithe paying temple attending LDS members are going to make that connection?

harmony wrote:

beefcalf wrote:For that small percentage of believing Latter-Day Saints for whom logic and rational thinking still mean something, this should serve as a wake-up call.

First, they must make the connection. Most don't. They believe the church when it says "they are not us", and go no deeper. They just shake their heads at those poor delusional FLDS and their Pathetic Prophet... because they are not US! (if they even know about it. It didn't make a big splash in my newspaper and certainly wasn't on the 6 o'clock news.)

i agree harmony.

harmony wrote:

Sethbag wrote:This certainly contradicts the idea that if one prays about and receives an answer that the Book of Mormon is true then that automatically implies that the LDS church is true. Warren Jeffs believes in the Book of Mormon, hell he entered the entire book into the record in his trial, and read from it as part of his defense.

I wonder how many active tithe paying temple attending LDS members are going to make that connection?

Some, I'm sure. I don't think most Mormons think too deeply about their faith.

Sethbag wrote:This certainly contradicts the idea that if one prays about and receives an answer that the Book of Mormon is true then that automatically implies that the LDS church is true. Warren Jeffs believes in the Book of Mormon, hell he entered the entire book into the record in his trial, and read from it as part of his defense.

He, Jeffs, has probably actually read it (The Book of Mormon), as well.

Sometimes I wonder if Smith had ever done so. Does Smith ever quote from it in his sermons? I would love to see (and read) those sermons. I must have missed them if they actually do exist.

I am willing to acknowledge I am wrong. Anyone?

harmony wrote:

beefcalf wrote:For that small percentage of believing Latter-Day Saints for whom logic and rational thinking still mean something, this should serve as a wake-up call.

First, they must make the connection. Most don't. They believe the church when it says "they are not us", and go no deeper. They just shake their heads at those poor delusional FLDS and their Pathetic Prophet... because they are not US! (if they even know about it. It didn't make a big splash in my newspaper and certainly wasn't on the 6 o'clock news.)

Harmony,

I think you are correct in this. But my enthusiasm for this line of reasoning stems from my belief that it will be an effective argument against the Book of Mormon in my discussions with believers.

I am not expecting many TBMs to analyze this for themselves, or to see how this reveals the flaw of Moroni's promise on their own. But I do think that if the argument is presented to a believer, it might be a very effective way of getting them to begin the process of analyzing it for themselves.

[ETA: fixed typo]