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even one of his marriages? Or is this all apologetic wishful thinking? Because, you know, the default for marriage is consummation. Beyond that you'd better have some concrete evidence that it DIDN'T happen.

To me if he consummated one of his plural marriages then they were not merely dynastic, symbolic or for eternity. And from the evidence I've seen he at least slept with a few of the wives— namely firsthand accounts of the wives and others who saw them sleeping together.

Besides if he didn't he was doing a piss-poor job of the whole patriarchal marriage bit. The is not only to get lost o wives but to produce lots of kids as well. Can't do that without sex.

badseed wrote:To me if he consummated one of his plural marriages then they were not merely dynastic, symbolic or for eternity. And from the evidence I've seen he at least slept with a few of the wives— namely firsthand accounts of the wives and others who saw them sleeping together.

Besides if he didn't he was doing a piss-poor job of the whole patriarchal marriage bit. The is not only to get lost o wives but to produce lots of kids as well. Can't do that without sex.

So, in short, we have positive evidence that he slept with his wives:

a) Sex is a given in marriage unless there is evidence otherwise
b) We have testimony from some of the wives that Joseph had sex with them.


And on the other side, the evidence that Joseph's marriages were sexless dynastic sealings is:

*crickets*

Is there any concrete evidence that Joseph didn't consummate even one of his marriages? Or is this all apologetic wishful thinking? Because, you know, the default for marriage is consummation. Beyond that you'd better have some concrete evidence that it DIDN'T happen.

Well, according to Peterson, the fact that Joseph's polygamous marriages produced few children proves that they weren't based on sex...even though, as Peterson concedes, they may have had a "sexual component." So does this mean that Joseph and his wives restricted their physical activities to those that would not result in pregnancy, like oral copulation?

And, is it fair to say that Joseph wouldn't have entered into polygamy if Fanny Alger hadn't sucked him into it?

Well, the fact that he sealed men to himself would seem to point to non-sexual sealings.

Also, I am of the opinion that he did not have sex with 14 year old Helen Marr Kimball. While I do believe that he did sleep with many of his wives, his character does not seem to be consistent with a pedophile.

To me, the single biggest piece of evidence that Joseph did sleep with his wives is that Brigham practiced polygamy EXACTLY the same way that Joseph did. There is not one shred of evidence to believe that Brigham changed anything, except that he didn't keep it secret anymore.

Buffalo wrote:even one of his marriages? Or is this all apologetic wishful thinking? Because, you know, the default for marriage is consummation. Beyond that you'd better have some concrete evidence that it DIDN'T happen.

How could there be evidence that Joseph Smith didn't consummate any of his polygamous marriages?

All we can do is look at the arguments that he did or that he didn't. And obviously biological children would be the most concrete evidence that he did. But since they haven't found any of those yet, we can only go on the statements of those who would know and other circumstantial evidence.

Personally, I think the evidence is pretty strong that he did consummate at least a few, but definitely not all.

Corpsegrinder wrote:

Is there any concrete evidence that Joseph didn't consummate even one of his marriages? Or is this all apologetic wishful thinking? Because, you know, the default for marriage is consummation. Beyond that you'd better have some concrete evidence that it DIDN'T happen.

Well, according to Peterson, the fact that Joseph's polygamous marriages produced few children proves that they weren't based on sex...even though, as Peterson concedes, they may have had a "sexual component." So does this mean that Joseph and his wives restricted their physical activities to those that would not result in pregnancy, like oral copulation?

And, is it fair to say that Joseph wouldn't have entered into polygamy if Fanny Alger hadn't sucked him into it?

That's evidence for birth control or abortion, which is backed up by at least two other sources. Not evidence of abstinence.

cinepro wrote:

Buffalo wrote:even one of his marriages? Or is this all apologetic wishful thinking? Because, you know, the default for marriage is consummation. Beyond that you'd better have some concrete evidence that it DIDN'T happen.

How could there be evidence that Joseph Smith didn't consummate any of his polygamous marriages?

All we can do is look at the arguments that he did or that he didn't. And obviously biological children would be the most concrete evidence that he did. But since they haven't found any of those yet, we can only go on the statements of those who would know and other circumstantial evidence.

Personally, I think the evidence is pretty strong that he did consummate at least a few, but definitely not all.

So he didn't have sex with the old one? That makes sense. Any others?

Buffalo wrote:even one of his marriages? Or is this all apologetic wishful thinking? Because, you know, the default for marriage is consummation. Beyond that you'd better have some concrete evidence that it DIDN'T happen.

It's beyond me why any believing LDS person would even posit that he didn't. They certainly believe that god instructed him to marry many women for the purpose of producing children (See D&C 132). So the question they, and us, should be asking is: WHY WOULDN'T HE CONSUMMATE HIS MARRIAGES? Assuming he did seams to me to be the logical default position.

That is... unless you don't think any god actually told him to engage in polygamy.

That's evidence for birth control or abortion, which is backed up by at least two other sources. Not evidence of abstinence.

The term "birth control" didn't exist until around the turn of the century--I think Margaret Sanger coined it. But yeah, contraception was far more ubiquitous in Joseph's time than people today realize. Old newspapers were full of advertisements for "elixirs for the restoration of the menses," i.e. a pharmaceutical abortifacient. People also had access to sponges, primitive IUD's, and condoms...which were carefully washed & stored after use so as to allow re-use. Kinda makes you wonder what else might be stored in the First Presidency vault, doesn't it?