The Long March Through FAIR: How Big Can the Tent Become?
Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:37 pm
In a recent post started by Will at the MADboard, on secularism as an ideological destination for those who have left the Church, the debate turned to the ability of humanism, as referenced in the classic Humanist Manifesto, to be syncretistically melded with the gospel. The philosophy of Pragmatism was also brought up as for its possible harmony with the Church as to moral philosophy and ethics.
In time, the discussion somehow moved to a lauding of American public education (begun by Sometimesaint). The discussion remained civil, and relevantly political (relevant to the gospel), until Fascimile3 initiated an overt political attack upon LeSellers (Lehi) in the following terms:
And then:
LeSellers responded to this last provocation with:
His other responses to the attacks on Reagan, conservatism and libertarianism, and his insertion of party politics into the discussion, were civil, and intelellectually grounded, as were mine and Vance's
http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/554 ... e__st__180
The response from the mods?
One can read the last few pages of the thread and quite clearly see who initiated the politicization of the thread, and also that the postings by LeSellers, myself, and Vance were purely in reaction and response to the initial challenges thrown into the arena by Facimile3.
And yes, as seems to be the usual case over the years, it was the libertarian and the conservative/libertarian hybrid who were singled out as perpetrators and threatened with expulsion. The two leftists/statists (STS and Fasimile3) who first initiated the a cheerleading session for American K-12 public education (a thread derail at the outset) and who (Facsimile3) brought naked partisan politics into the discussion, go scott free and are rendered invisible by the mods, who single out the conservative and libertarian for threats of suspension and for...what? Politicization of the thread.
Immediately, my mind was caught back to the ongoing conflict initiated by David Bokovoy a couple of years ago at MAD, in which a body of threads, all focused on versions of a core theme in which politics and economics deeply intersected gospel teachings, were allowed to continue, unabated, for weeks, even though clearly deeply enmeshed in political/ideological implications, while conservative and libertarian oriented critics were threatened, suspended from threads, and banned from the board.
The "United Firm" thread was the granddaddy of the others that followed. Numerous cases of similar bias from that board's moderators could be adduced, in which liberal/leftist posters are allowed to rule the roost of threads with political content, until strong debate ensures from opposing quarters, at which point only conservative/libertarian posters are disciplined, while leftists or various hues - those who apparently hold the fashionably correct "progressive" views on things political, ideological, and economic - among the board moderators, are allowed the last word.
This raises a host of potential questions and problems relative to the well understood (both in the Church and outside it, at least within the conservative intellectual tradition) dangers posed by a perhaps too deep and to enmeshed embedding in the rarefied towers of higher education, and the susceptibility of otherwise competent LDS intellectuals to generational intellectual fads and received politically correct wisdom.
Such intellectual fashions speak, of course, more than anything else, to the intellectual egos of those susceptible to its allure, and the inevitable end of the intellectual acceptance of such a template is a psychological orientation and a culture that is much more easily given to intellectual intolerance and a desire for ideological conformity, than with other philosophical orientations.
One can only wonder if what we see then, when moderators shut down, in a vast majority of cases, only one side in a debate, and then cast blame on that side for the destruction of a thread even when it was patently supporters of ideas far closer to their own who were the instigators of the politicization, is the blossoming of precisely such attitudes, attitudes absorbed, if only osmotically, from within modern academe, have begun to gel to such an extent that a kind of elitist in-group mentality has settled itself and set down roots among a small body of LDS intellectuals who have been affected by their prolonged association with the academic world to the degree that the intellect, to turn on its head something Boyd Packer once said, is becoming more important than the mantel.
Call this "The September Six Syndrome." Not that the mods at the MD&D board are heading for apostasy, but there does appear to be a clear tendency manifested as an absorption and integration of fashionable "progressive" ideas, concepts, and attitudes from the surrounding "politically correct" academic culture, which begins to manifest itself in places like board moderation in the manner in which people holding different views are allowed or disallowed, by various means, to express them.
Detailed scholarly quibbling and struggle over arcana such as the nuanced forensic analysis of the KEP can take precedence over discussion and debate of first principles and philosophical verities. The first is important, to be sure, but can also become a deeply self limiting exercise that crowds out far weightier intellectual endeavors.
The real problem I see, however, is a creeping secularization and rapprochement between the gospel and Babylon that is subtle and incremental, but because of this, all the more insidious. The same thing happened as Alexandrian philosophy gradually, over a long stretch of time, ultimately became, to a great degree, Christianity, while the original doctrines of Christ were modified to coincide with Hellenistic cultural "correctness."
It would be interesting if, at some point, the incipient postmodernists, humanists, and "progressives" in the Church would "come out of the closet" and make their views on points where the gospel intersects politics, political philosophy, and social order, clear.
This could make, indeed, for some interesting reading.
In time, the discussion somehow moved to a lauding of American public education (begun by Sometimesaint). The discussion remained civil, and relevantly political (relevant to the gospel), until Fascimile3 initiated an overt political attack upon LeSellers (Lehi) in the following terms:
I consider myself a conservative in many ways, but I have never been less proud to call myself a conservative than during these last couple of years. I truly fear that the Republican Party is on a road to ruin by taking their interpretation of the Reagan era (which happened in a different context) and turning it into an ideal ultimate good to pursue regardless of what is working and what isn't. This happened with Liberalism during the Johnson years when that crop of Democrats tried to take an interpretation of the FDR New Deal (which happened in a different context) and turn it into an ideal ultimate good to pursue regardless of what was working and what wasn't.
I think there is a better way forward in Mormon thought by giving up on Platonism that other Christians are bound to keep if they hold tight to a non-human immaterial Trinity. Postmodernism is not a hard fit for Mormons. I can respect Platonic Theologies as beautiful and worthwhile projects for people who pursue them and find joy. What I have very little tolerance for is a kind of Platonic deification of nostalgia (made up or not) from an earlier time that people try to impose on us now to relive; I'm very very fearful of what these people are capable of doing, religious or secular humanist alike (blind overly confident blowholes).
And then:
So I think we can tie this to the topic quite well. Your views have a much stronger propensity for revolution and disturbance than Pragmatists. As a registered Republican I invite you to please stay out of my party (please take the Tea Party with you).
LeSellers responded to this last provocation with:
I am a registered Republican. I welcome the TEA Party. We are "Taxed Enough Already", "enough" and 'way too much.
His other responses to the attacks on Reagan, conservatism and libertarianism, and his insertion of party politics into the discussion, were civil, and intelellectually grounded, as were mine and Vance's
http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/554 ... e__st__180
The response from the mods?
This topic has been closed by a moderator.
Reason: This thread is all over the place. Loran, Le Sellers stop all the politicizing of threads. Its getting old if I continue to have reports of this I will start suspending you two.
One can read the last few pages of the thread and quite clearly see who initiated the politicization of the thread, and also that the postings by LeSellers, myself, and Vance were purely in reaction and response to the initial challenges thrown into the arena by Facimile3.
And yes, as seems to be the usual case over the years, it was the libertarian and the conservative/libertarian hybrid who were singled out as perpetrators and threatened with expulsion. The two leftists/statists (STS and Fasimile3) who first initiated the a cheerleading session for American K-12 public education (a thread derail at the outset) and who (Facsimile3) brought naked partisan politics into the discussion, go scott free and are rendered invisible by the mods, who single out the conservative and libertarian for threats of suspension and for...what? Politicization of the thread.
Immediately, my mind was caught back to the ongoing conflict initiated by David Bokovoy a couple of years ago at MAD, in which a body of threads, all focused on versions of a core theme in which politics and economics deeply intersected gospel teachings, were allowed to continue, unabated, for weeks, even though clearly deeply enmeshed in political/ideological implications, while conservative and libertarian oriented critics were threatened, suspended from threads, and banned from the board.
The "United Firm" thread was the granddaddy of the others that followed. Numerous cases of similar bias from that board's moderators could be adduced, in which liberal/leftist posters are allowed to rule the roost of threads with political content, until strong debate ensures from opposing quarters, at which point only conservative/libertarian posters are disciplined, while leftists or various hues - those who apparently hold the fashionably correct "progressive" views on things political, ideological, and economic - among the board moderators, are allowed the last word.
This raises a host of potential questions and problems relative to the well understood (both in the Church and outside it, at least within the conservative intellectual tradition) dangers posed by a perhaps too deep and to enmeshed embedding in the rarefied towers of higher education, and the susceptibility of otherwise competent LDS intellectuals to generational intellectual fads and received politically correct wisdom.
Such intellectual fashions speak, of course, more than anything else, to the intellectual egos of those susceptible to its allure, and the inevitable end of the intellectual acceptance of such a template is a psychological orientation and a culture that is much more easily given to intellectual intolerance and a desire for ideological conformity, than with other philosophical orientations.
One can only wonder if what we see then, when moderators shut down, in a vast majority of cases, only one side in a debate, and then cast blame on that side for the destruction of a thread even when it was patently supporters of ideas far closer to their own who were the instigators of the politicization, is the blossoming of precisely such attitudes, attitudes absorbed, if only osmotically, from within modern academe, have begun to gel to such an extent that a kind of elitist in-group mentality has settled itself and set down roots among a small body of LDS intellectuals who have been affected by their prolonged association with the academic world to the degree that the intellect, to turn on its head something Boyd Packer once said, is becoming more important than the mantel.
Call this "The September Six Syndrome." Not that the mods at the MD&D board are heading for apostasy, but there does appear to be a clear tendency manifested as an absorption and integration of fashionable "progressive" ideas, concepts, and attitudes from the surrounding "politically correct" academic culture, which begins to manifest itself in places like board moderation in the manner in which people holding different views are allowed or disallowed, by various means, to express them.
Detailed scholarly quibbling and struggle over arcana such as the nuanced forensic analysis of the KEP can take precedence over discussion and debate of first principles and philosophical verities. The first is important, to be sure, but can also become a deeply self limiting exercise that crowds out far weightier intellectual endeavors.
The real problem I see, however, is a creeping secularization and rapprochement between the gospel and Babylon that is subtle and incremental, but because of this, all the more insidious. The same thing happened as Alexandrian philosophy gradually, over a long stretch of time, ultimately became, to a great degree, Christianity, while the original doctrines of Christ were modified to coincide with Hellenistic cultural "correctness."
It would be interesting if, at some point, the incipient postmodernists, humanists, and "progressives" in the Church would "come out of the closet" and make their views on points where the gospel intersects politics, political philosophy, and social order, clear.
This could make, indeed, for some interesting reading.