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I was discussing the war in heaven with a co-worker today and some things just don't make sense.

If Satan instigated a war against God, this means that either a) Satan thought he could win. If this is a possibility, then God is not all powerful and can be overthrown. Or b) Satan was just THAT stupid, arrogant and egotistical that he waged a war that he knew damn well he could never win, because, ya know, he's going against GOD!!

For you believers, how do you envision the war in heaven?

This brings up several questions. If "The Kolob Theorem" is to be believed (and I see no scientific reason why it shouldn't) then there are at least 350 billion different Gods in our universe, each ruling a different galaxy. If there was a war in heaven between Satan and our God, then this probably happens all of the time with other Gods and their children in all of those hundreds of billions of galaxies in our universe.

Is it possible in some of the Galaxies in our universe that Gods have been overthrown? What would life under an Usurper God be like? Better? More fun?

Also, we only get one version of the war in heaven. History is written by the victorious. I for one, would like to read about Satan's version of how things really went down. Maybe Satan isn't really the bad guy we have been led to believe?

They say it was pride. What can I say, mankind is irrational. We still do all sorts of dumb things--smoking, overeating, procrastinating, hating outsiders, homeopathic medicine, denying evolution, thinking vaccinations cause autism, etc.

Why should Satan be any smarter than we are?

Scottie wrote:I was discussing the war in heaven with a co-worker today and some things just don't make sense.

If Satan instigated a war against God, this means that either a) Satan thought he could win. If this is a possibility, then God is not all powerful and can be overthrown.

while the not all powerful (whatever the means to us limited folk) is a possibility without any possibility of "can be overthrown". I don't really know if Satan thought he could win or not--it sounds ludricous sitting upon my pedestal, but what the garbage do I know?

Or b) Satan was just THAT stupid, arrogant and egotistical that he waged a war that he knew damn well he could never win, because, ya know, he's going against GOD!!

Another distinct possibility. This becomes a little more interesting to me if you factor in the evil, disaster, and problems we see in this world. Perhaps satan offered others a way to avoid having to see and experience these things--thus the appeal to join his side. Of course, if this all played out that way, Satan woudln't have realized how difficult it would have been for he and his buds to stick around in their spirit state for eternity, essentially going no where. Oopss...how could he have been so stupid?

For you believers, how do you envision the war in heaven?

Murky, cloudy and less like war then we're used --how do you battle, physically, against spirits that are in essence eternal?

Maybe Satan more or less got what he wanted--a huge following of suckers.

I don't believe for a second (well, in Satan, but putting that aside) that Satan suffered from the same kinds of irrational human foibles that we do. Satan is NOT human. If you believe LDS theology, he and Jesus were the 2 best, most valiant spirits. The brightest among all of us.

Lucifer would have to know the consequences of his actions. He really chose an eternity of torture and misery fighting a war he knew he couldn't win? I don't care how egotistical someone is. Nobody is THIS egotistical.

I'm with Everybody Wang Chung. Perhaps Lucifer listened to the plan and saw that there is no way that any of us will escape the hellfire and damnation that God and Christ prepared. Perhaps he called God on the idiocy and cruelty of His plan. Perhaps God and Jesus are the cruel ones and Satan sacrificed himself to hell in order to save us from the cruelty of Elohim and Jehovah. Maybe being in hell with the kindness of Lucifer is the better option.

Scottie wrote:Maybe being in hell with the kindness of Lucifer is the better option.

For some, it is.

Scottie wrote:I don't believe for a second (well, in Satan, but putting that aside) that Satan suffered from the same kinds of irrational human foibles that we do. Satan is NOT human.

Most of our proclivity to right or wrong is innate to our spirits, not our bodies.

If you believe LDS theology, he and Jesus were the 2 best, most valiant spirits. The brightest among all of us.

Intelligence and ability does not make one free from irrational thoughts or other shortcomings. Take KG for example. He's a bright guy, but he's also obsessive when it comes to arguments.

Even so, Satan may not have expected to win against God. All he may want is to become popular. If he can't be called as the savior, then perhaps he can win admiration by some other means. I'd say he's done rather well considering. The foolishness of Satan is that if he could have humbled himself and obeyed God, he would have found even more personal happiness.

Scottie wrote:I don't believe for a second (well, in Satan, but putting that aside) that Satan suffered from the same kinds of irrational human foibles that we do. Satan is NOT human. If you believe LDS theology, he and Jesus were the 2 best, most valiant spirits. The brightest among all of us.

That's certainly debatable though. Satan could have been high up in standing and not really have been among the 2 best. But even if that were the case, whose to say Satan couldn't have been, even if the next just below Jesus, subject to the same foibles of us all? Maybe the dispartity between 1 and 2 was far wider than what we can conceive.

Lucifer would have to know the consequences of his actions. He really chose an eternity of torture and misery fighting a war he knew he couldn't win? I don't care how egotistical someone is. Nobody is THIS egotistical.

Are you sure about nobody? I'm battling people on this site every day knowing I can't win nuttin'.

I'm with Everybody Wang Chung. Perhaps Lucifer listened to the plan and saw that there is no way that any of us will escape the hellfire and damnation that God and Christ prepared. Perhaps he called God on the idiocy and cruelty of His plan. Perhaps God and Jesus are the cruel ones and Satan sacrificed himself to hell in order to save us from the cruelty of Elohim and Jehovah. Maybe being in hell with the kindness of Lucifer is the better option.

On that idea, anything is possible I suppose. of course I've had such and blessings in this life to contravene that theory. i guess we'll have to wait and see, or in your case, guess and never find out (since you don't think there is a satan and probably not a heaven or hell or life after this.

What does a war in heaven even look like? How do you kill enemy spirits? Do you lob insults? ("Your mother wears army garments!") How do you take prisoners of war? Can you lock up a spirit without it slipping through the cage bars? Can you torture a spirit? Is that what people mean when they refer to a tortured soul? Are the battle songs played on harps? When you lose a spirit limb, does it automatically grow back? Are you fighting for pieces of land? Does that imply limited space in heaven? Does hell consist of fire because the bombs are still burning? Is military intel all that important when everyone can read everyone else's thoughts?

Or is the idea of a heavenly war just damned stupid?