DiscussMormonism.com

Last night I was winnowing my old and dog eared paperback copy of Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith looking for one of my favorite quotes where Joseph said he wanted the liberty of believing as he pleased, and its feeling so good not to be trammelled.

I recalled it was in context of a certain elder (Brown?) being disciplined by a church council for teaching something "wrong" about the beasts in the Book of Revelation.

In the index, I found "Brown, Father," and went to the page directed. Strangely, I could not find the quote.

What I did find were a series of asterisks in the middle of page 288. Wondering what was deleted and whether it was the quote I was looking for, I grabbed off the shelf my copy of The Words of Joseph Smith and found the same sermon by comparing dates.

The quote I was looking for was indeed the one that had been edited out of TPJS by Joseph Fielding Smith.

The quote is below.

My question is WHY Joseph Fielding Smith would think this one paragraph of sufficient import to not want the readers of his book to know about.

Thoughts?

"I never thought it was right to call up a man and try him because he erred in doctrine. It looks too much like Methodism and not like Latter-day Saintism. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be kicked out of their church. I want the liberty of believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It don’t prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine." The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 184 (edited out of TPJS at page 288).

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

consiglieri wrote:My question is WHY Joseph Fielding Smith would think this one paragraph of sufficient import to not want the readers of his book to know about.

Thoughts?

Probably because Joseph Fielding knew he personally erred in doctrine quite a lot.

consiglieri wrote:Last night I was winnowing my old and dog eared paperback copy of Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith looking for one of my favorite quotes where Joseph said he wanted the liberty of believing as he pleased, and its feeling so good not to be trammelled.

I recalled it was in context of a certain elder (Brown?) being disciplined by a church council for teaching something "wrong" about the beasts in the Book of Revelation.

In the index, I found "Brown, Father," and went to the page directed. Strangely, I could not find the quote.

What I did find were a series of asterisks in the middle of page 288. Wondering what was deleted and whether it was the quote I was looking for, I grabbed off the shelf my copy of The Words of Joseph Smith and found the same sermon by comparing dates.

The quote I was looking for was indeed the one that had been edited out of TPJS by Joseph Fielding Smith.

The quote is below.

My question is WHY Joseph Fielding Smith would think this one paragraph of sufficient import to not want the readers of his book to know about.

Thoughts?

"I never thought it was right to call up a man and try him because he erred in doctrine. It looks too much like Methodism and not like Latter-day Saintism. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be kicked out of their church. I want the liberty of believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It don’t prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine." The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 184 (edited out of TPJS at page 288).

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I think the Church as decided it wants to be more like the Methodists after all. If they'd followed Joseph Smith in this, the September 6 would never have been excommunicated.

consiglieri wrote:My question is WHY Joseph Fielding Smith would think this one paragraph of sufficient import to not want the readers of his book to know about.

"I never thought it was right to call up a man and try him because he erred in doctrine. It looks too much like Methodism and not like Latter-day Saintism. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be kicked out of their church. I want the liberty of believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It don’t prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine." The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 184 (edited out of TPJS at page 288).

As to why the quote was taken out, I can think of two likely reasons. First, the quote no longer fits with current orthodoxy. Second, the quote directly attacks another Christian denomination and perhaps it was taken out as an irenic gesture.

Some further thoughts on this, I hope this doesn't offend, but it might. I think this quote is much abused among liberal Mormons. Liberal Mormons desperately want space for thinking in the LDS church. The problem is that there isn't much, so liberal Mormons ransack the entire corpus of Mormonism looking for something to make their case. This is one of the few quotes they point to in an effort to make space for themselves. The problem is that I see very little evidence that this has ever been the case in any period of the LDS church. People generally imagine that it must have been so because why else would Joseph Smith have said it unless it was so? If it really was true that people could have doctrinal differences with Joseph Smith without risking church censure, then all if have to say is: William Law.

My experience has been that most questions of doctrine are converted into questions of authority and history. Thus one might be allowed lenience in doctrinal adherence, but that lenience is balanced by restrictions on having to take orthodox stances on questions of history and authority. For example the Book of Mormon is negative on polygamy and teaches a doctrine of God much closer to trinitarianism than the current LDS teachings on the subject. Thus, the LDS church itself officially doesn't care much about the doctrine established in the Book of Mormon (yes, I'm aware there are reasons given for these departures, I don't find them convincing). However, what one cannot do publicly is question 1) The historicity of the Book of Mormon or 2) The authority of the Joseph Smith as translator. The conclusion is that the doctrine of the Book of Mormon itself is not as important as its historicity and its ability to support authority claims.

As to my second point, I think it's quite funny because LDS folk generally like to assert that they don't attack other churches so why don't you filthy evangelicals stop attacking us? Yet, here is Joseph Smith being down on Methodism. Though not a direct attack, it's clearly neither neutral nor positive towards Methodists.

Finally, I think the quote is hilarious because the more I research Methodism, the more I come to see early Mormonism as "Methodism Misunderstood." Now, in the period of Joseph Smith, and in the areas in which he was living, there may have been some insistence on certain creedal beliefs. But historically, Methodism has been pretty open to all kinds of views. Even at the founding of Methodism there was a massive disagreement between Calvinist Methodists and Arminian Methodists. John Wesley (founder of Methodism and an Arminian) and George Whitefield (an extremely popular preacher and staunch Calvinist) were part of the same Methodist movement in the 18th century. Their disagreements were very real, but neither thought it necessary to excommunicate the other from the movement, nor to tell the other to shut up until they got their beliefs correct. While each thought the other mistaken, they saw each other as doing more good than harm and continued to preach their respective views for decades.

consiglieri wrote:Last night I was winnowing my old and dog eared paperback copy of Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith looking for one of my favorite quotes where Joseph said he wanted the liberty of believing as he pleased, and its feeling so good not to be trammelled.

I recalled it was in context of a certain elder (Brown?) being disciplined by a church council for teaching something "wrong" about the beasts in the Book of Revelation.

In the index, I found "Brown, Father," and went to the page directed. Strangely, I could not find the quote.

What I did find were a series of asterisks in the middle of page 288. Wondering what was deleted and whether it was the quote I was looking for, I grabbed off the shelf my copy of The Words of Joseph Smith and found the same sermon by comparing dates.

The quote I was looking for was indeed the one that had been edited out of TPJS by Joseph Fielding Smith.

The quote is below.

My question is WHY Joseph Fielding Smith would think this one paragraph of sufficient import to not want the readers of his book to know about.

Thoughts?

"I never thought it was right to call up a man and try him because he erred in doctrine. It looks too much like Methodism and not like Latter-day Saintism. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be kicked out of their church. I want the liberty of believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It don’t prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine." The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 184 (edited out of TPJS at page 288).

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I do not understand why you blame Joseph Fielding Smith. He included it originally. I do not think that he was the one who took it out. My copy was obtained after JFS was dead.

It was the reformation of the 1850's with Jedidiah Grant telling everyone up and down the Rocky Mountain Empire that to sustain their file leader was first and last as to the duty of every saint. This was an effort to keep the Church as one body so that the scattered flock would NOT evolve separately. This irresistibly established that the thinking is done from the top down and wantonly killed this principle fond to Joseph Smith. This also displaced any NEED for the members to actually have the gift and power of the Holy Ghost for themselves. Now it was the fashion that IF you sustained your leaders THAT was the spirit of the Church. Amen. So it has ever been since.

You see, I trust, that when everyone has the gift and power of the Holy Ghost each man or woman is thereafter TAUGHT of God. That is the REAL gospel and true Church. What we have in the LDS evolution is apostasy led on by abject hypocrisy. Because it turned out that soon enough none of the leadership had the gift and power of the Holy Ghost and the Gentiles were forevermore blind. So that after LZ added paying your tithes as proof of the spirit a priestcraft arose that has served them well building up a church after their own likeness and in their own image which is in the image of the world even Babylon the Great which shall fall. D&C 1

My question is WHY Joseph Fielding Smith would think this one paragraph of sufficient import to not want the readers of his book to know about.

Thoughts?

Probably because Joseph Fielding knew he personally erred in doctrine quite a lot.

One would think that would make him desirous to include the quote.

"I never thought it was right to call up a man and try him because he erred in doctrine. It looks too much like Methodism and not like Latter-day Saintism. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be kicked out of their church. I want the liberty of believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It don’t prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine." The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 184 (edited out of TPJS at page 288).

Keeping this quote in might have encouraged members to interpret doctrine and other religious matters on their own. As you know, the thinking has been done so this liberty of believing as you please without fear of being slapped down or "kicked out of their church" was too provocative. Just because the Prophet said it, does not mean it should be allowed to undermine future appointed holders of authority from exercising a more stringent say so on items ranging from lunch room policy to the number of women's earrings.

.

Aristotle Smith wrote:
As to why the quote was taken out, I can think of two likely reasons. First, the quote no longer fits with current orthodoxy. Second, the quote directly attacks another Christian denomination and perhaps it was taken out as an irenic gesture.

This is the most likely reason, especially mentioning another faith.

Also, we need to remember that this quotation was written by someone who was in the audience listening to Joseph Smith. It is a second hand account. I don't know if we have the full context of the quotation because of its second hand nature.

Aristotle Smith wrote:
Some further thoughts on this, I hope this doesn't offend, but it might. I think this quote is much abused among liberal Mormons. Liberal Mormons desperately want space for thinking in the LDS church. The problem is that there isn't much, so liberal Mormons ransack the entire corpus of Mormonism looking for something to make their case. This is one of the few quotes they point to in an effort to make space for themselves. The problem is that I see very little evidence that this has ever been the case in any period of the LDS church. People generally imagine that it must have been so because why else would Joseph Smith have said it unless it was so? If it really was true that people could have doctrinal differences with Joseph Smith without risking church censure, then all if have to say is: William Law.

It was easy for Joseph to say this because he had the freedom to believe what he wanted, and did so by creating his own religion. He just wouldn't let anyone else do so. This has been the case ever since.

consiglieri wrote:The quote I was looking for was indeed the one that had been edited out of TPJS by Joseph Fielding Smith.

The quote was restored in the 1993 revision of TPJS (published as Scriptural Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith).