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I have no "faith" in Joseph Smith or Brigham Young as "prophets". They lied too much. Their prophecies failed. They did too many "evil" things. Joseph Smith banged his own foster daughters, the wives of other men, mothers and their own daughters, then lied about publicly and called those who accused him of polygamy "all liars".

Brigham Young! Oh my God! Where do I start? He....
*Lied about Emma Smith poisoning Joseph Smith
*Lied about the so-called "Rocky Mountain Prophecy" that Joseph Smith never gave.
*Changed Mormon history to make it appear he was Joseph's successor, after David Smith (whom Brigham Young said was Joseph's succesor) snubbed him.
*Owned tobacco farms, and whiskey distilleries, and sold MASSIVE amounts of tobacco and whiskey to Gentiles, at the same time telling Mormons NOT to buy or sell with Gentiles.
*Owned the only "grog house" in Salt Lake City for many years.
*Rented out some of his many homes in Salt Lake City as brothels (which were busy because half of Mormon men could not get married in life because half of all Mormon women and girls were polygamous wives)
*Advocated the inter-racial couples be killed along with their children
*Advocated that thieves, blasphemers, and others, have their throats cut from ear to ear to "atone" for their sins
*Ordained one of his sons an Apostle at age 11 to ensure a Young would rule the Church
*Borrowed hundreds of thousands of dollars from the Tithing Office every year, and "paid it back" by writing in "for services rendered".
*According to his adopted son John D. Lee, and former bodyguard Bill Hickman, he had various men murdered who got in his way.
*Prophesied that the Mormons would return to Jackson County and build the Temple there before the generation living in 1832 were all dead.
*Taught the Adam-God doctrine.
*Taught the "Heavenly Incest Doctrine" that God the Father had sex with Mary.
*etc.,etc.,etc.

Joseph Smith was ignorant, but not particularly evil. He had some noble qualities, but he was a liar, adulterer, and womanizer.

Brigham Young was just an "evil" man! An evil....EVIL...man! More of a Mafia don than a "Prophet" of any kind.

If you want to read about a Christian Prophet, who had visions and received Revelations from Jesus Christ, I would recommend the life, visions, and revelations of Sundar Singh, the Christian "sadhu" (holy man) of India (early 20th century). WOW! He _____truly was____ a Man of God! I trust the visions and revelations of Sundar Singh MUCH MORE than the "visions" and "revelations" of Joseph Smith, or Brigham Young, or the "no prophecies" and "no visions" and "no revelations" of current Mormon leaders. Google:

"Sadhu Sundar Singh"

daheshism wrote:I have no "faith" in Joseph Smith or Brigham Young as "prophets".

I don't think you know what quotation marks around a word mean.

They lied too much. Their prophecies failed. They did too many "evil" things.

Further proof for my hypothesis.

Joseph Smith banged his own foster daughters, the wives of other men, mothers and their own daughters, then lied about publicly and called those who accused him of polygamy "all liars".

Hypothesis proven.

So Nehor are you only interested in quotation mark application?

Did he say anything which was an outrageous inaccuracy?

marg wrote:So Nehor are you only interested in quotation mark application?

Yeah, it's "pretty" much my "only" fixation in "life".

Did he say anything which was an outrageous inaccuracy?

Yes, he called Joseph ignorant and Brigham evil.

The Nehor wrote:

marg wrote:So Nehor are you only interested in quotation mark application?

Yeah, it's "pretty" much my "only" fixation in "life".

Right that's exactly what I was inferring.

Yes, he called Joseph ignorant and Brigham evil.

Wow I didn't notice he called Joseph "ignorant" I only noticed this part "Joseph Smith banged his own foster daughters, the wives of other men, mothers and their own daughters, then lied about publicly and called those who accused him of polygamy "all liars"."

Maybe he could explain what he means by "ignorant" since that's what you focused on.

And he had offered to support his argument, over 10 items for Brigham Young which within context as a whole seemed pretty "evil" to me.

You have not countered him at all Nehor. He's listing actual things which are either factually true or not. If they are true...they appear to paint Smith and Young in a very unfavorable light..but then again maybe you don't think so.

daheshism wrote:Brigham Young! Oh my God! Where do I start? He....
*Lied about Emma Smith poisoning Joseph Smith

Actually, from what I've read, that wasn't a lie.

There is nothing in the original journals of Joseph Smith even to suggest Emma poisoned him or tried to. Nothing in Joseph's "secret" journal kept by his faithful scribe William Clayton.

Is there anything from the Nauvoo period, from anyone, to suggest that Emma poisoned or tried to poison Joseph Smith? I could find absolutely __nothing___.

Brigham Young only starts preaching this "after" Joseph Smith III and David Smith "snub" him and begin to convert Mormons in Utah to the RLDS Church. Brigham Young was ANGRY!

Brigham Young had to tell Mormons that Emma Smith was a "damned liar" and tried to poison Joseph Smith, because Joseph Smith III and David Smith (whom Brigham Young had preached a year before was THE RIGHTFUL HEIR OF HIS FATHER AND RIGHTFUL HEAD OF THE LDS CHURCH) had "snubbed" Brigham and both of these young men were telling Mormons in Utah "Our dear mother Emma told us that Joseph Smith had nothing to do with polygamy!"

Now, was Emma Smith a liar? AB-SO-LUTE-LY! Emma Smith did not want her sons to be involved with polygamy, and did not want them under Brigham in Utah (whom she hated). So...OF COURSE SHE LIED!!!

But, that doesn't meant Emma tried to poison Joseph Smith Jr.

Brigham Young had to "discredit" Emma Smith, so he came up with the poisoning story. Pure fiction (from everythign I could find). Some Mormons do the same things to me. The simply "copy" LIES about me from Anti-Mormons, and propagate these lies, because they disagree with me. One of the reasons I concluded Mormonism can't be true....because of the actions of the Mormons.

Brigham Young was a liar, murderer, adulterer, theif, hypocrite, and a very, very, very EVIL man. Good organizer though!

Nahor...I apologize. Joseph Smith Jr. was NOT "ignorant". He was a very smart and "street-wize" con-man, who fooled the ignorant. He fooled me for many years. I was ignorant, but with a sincere heart. I was fooled by him.

Where is my "evidence" of the things I say?

All over the Internet? Read Jerald and Sandra Tanners "Mormonism: Shadow or Reality?" for a start, and work from there. Will take years, but you'll find that all my claims in regards to Joseph Smith and BY are true.

Dr. Shades wrote:

daheshism wrote:Brigham Young! Oh my God! Where do I start? He....
*Lied about Emma Smith poisoning Joseph Smith

Actually, from what I've read, that wasn't a lie.

daheshism wrote:Now, was Emma Smith a liar? AB-SO-LUTE-LY! Emma Smith did not want her sons to be involved with polygamy, and did not want them under Brigham in Utah (whom she hated). So...OF COURSE SHE LIED!!!

That makes a lot of sense and a perspective I hadn't thought of before. I was thinking on the matter of polygamy she was dishonest but with this perspective she had good justification.