Why Many LDS are Angry at Packer's GC Talk

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_Everybody Wang Chung
_Emeritus
Posts: 4056
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:53 am

Why Many LDS are Angry at Packer's GC Talk

Post by _Everybody Wang Chung »

I've been a little I’m perplexed recently by some of the criticism online (and heard in person) of Boyd K. Packer’s remarks at the Saturday session of General Conference last weekend. I have to defend him on this.

Below is the link to the transcript of the talk:

http://LDS.org/general-conference/print/2011/10/counsel-to-youth/?lang=eng

We all know that Packer, during his decades-long ministry as a general authority/apostle in the Church, has made his fair share of controversial remarks. He’s expressed many "personal" opinions over the years (most Church leaders do on certain issues), some of which have generated reactionary outrage and even accusations of hatred on the part of Packer toward certain groups or persons.

I’m not a scholarly expert on Packer, his life, his motives, his thoughts, or even on his vast anthology of documented and recorded discourses. But, I have read and re-read his talk from last Saturday, and just can’t find where those who choose to be offended are fueling up their feelings of offense.

One criticism I’ve heard is that Packer, in his talk, contradicted what has seemingly been a common promise in the patriarchal blessings of the Saints, namely, that a person will be blessed to live to see the Second Coming, or to be alive during the Millennium. In the last two lines of his talk, Packer said:

Sometimes you might be tempted to think as I did from time to time in my youth: “The way things are going, the world’s going to be over with. The end of the world is going to come before I get to where I should be.” Not so! You can look forward to doing it right—getting married, having a family, seeing your children and grandchildren, maybe even great-grandchildren.


I don’t know why some LDS have become irate over these comments or why they insist they are incongruous with promises contained some patriarchal blessings. You’d think that people have more important work and concerns to attend to.

Are they really hoping that Jesus comes before their mortal deaths? Will that somehow, in their own minds, validate the high degree of spiritual valiance they ascribe to themselves? Are they desperately hoping to proverbially flip off the world and give a collective, “I told you we Mormons were right,”? Perhaps.

From what I understand (and my understanding is admittedly limited), many Saints even during the early days of the Church were promised in their patriarchal blessings that they would live to see the Savior come and claim his kingdom. Many of them probably assumed, at least initially, that such promises meant that they’d be alive in mortality until the Second Coming. Even Joseph Smith speculated that coming of the Savior would probably occur within a few short decades.

In the Doctrine and Covenants 130, we read of some clarifications offered by Joseph Smith in response to a lesson or sermon about the coming of the Savior that Elder Orson Hyde had presented at a meeting on April 2, 1843 in Nauvoo.
D&C 130:14-17 are as follows:
14 I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the acoming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following:
15 Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore alet this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.
16 I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face.
17 I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.

I’m sure many members of the Church who heard the Prophet speak on this occasion immediately marked on their mental calendars that Jesus Christ would return to the earth to usher in the Millennium in the year 1890, when Joseph Smith would be 85 years old.

What were people hoping Packer would say in his talk about the issue? Did they want him to say something like, “The end is nigh. Hope is lost. Most of you will not live through the commotion and turmoil of the next ten years. So, just set aside your dreams and goals and cower down in your bunkers and hope that when your food storage is exhausted and death approaches, it takes you quickly so that your suffering is minimized. To you youth out there, the end is coming so just give up on those college and career plans. For you young married couples, the end is just about here, and the world is far too dangerous of a place now to bear and raise children, so don’t even try. For those of you unlucky enough to survive the upheavals, I recommend you start building those handcarts and grow some livestock for the trek to Jackson County.”?

Maybe some folks in the Utah Mormon corridor really want to hear something like that from Church leaders. Maybe they want the apostles and prophets to be bold in their predictions, like Harold Camping of http://www.FamilyRadio.org

I would like to imagine that if there truly is a Millenium, that people will continue to work during the Millennium, although I don’t suppose the economy will be quite like it is now. People will continue to cultivate crops and consume food. Clothing will be still be manufactured. People will still produce works of art, masterpieces of literature and music, and memorable entertainment. Pink Floyd will be fully reunited, including a sober and genius Syd Barrett, and release seven ground-breaking masterpiece albums right in a row. I expect people will still engage in recreational activities, travel, and vacations. I hope that competitive sports will continue to be played for recreational purposes. People will hike, fish, and enjoy the beauty of nature. Homes and buildings will continue to be constructed. Students will continue to learn at institutes of higher education. Parents will continue to bear and raise children. Life during the Millennium will much resemble the positive aspects of life as we now know it. Perhaps BYU will even finally be invited to join a BCS conference during the Millennium.

The world has countless problems and it can be frightening to just read or watch the news. But there is also remarkable selflessness and goodness. I for one am glad that Packer took a step (albeit a small one) in trying to distance the Church from the gospel of doomsday.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

Daniel C. Peterson, 2014
_jon
_Emeritus
Posts: 1464
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:15 am

Re: Why Many LDS are Angry at Packer's GC Talk

Post by _jon »

I don't have a big beef with it, although it does seem to contradict previous Church positions on the second coming - so it is significant.

I think the personal angst comes from people with patriarchal blessings. These are 'sold' as being direct, personal communications from God to direct and inform the decisions in your life. Some people have been, therefore, told by God that they will see the second coming of Christ. Packer says they won't.

I don't really have a dog in this fight but that's the sum of it as far as I see it.
'Church pictures are not always accurate' (The Nehor May 4th 2011)

Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told.
Religion is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right.
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: Why Many LDS are Angry at Packer's GC Talk

Post by _Droopy »

One criticism I’ve heard is that Packer, in his talk, contradicted what has seemingly been a common promise in the patriarchal blessings of the Saints, namely, that a person will be blessed to live to see the Second Coming, or to be alive during the Millennium. In the last two lines of his talk, Packer said:

[quote "Packer"]Sometimes you might be tempted to think as I did from time to time in my youth: “The way things are going, the world’s going to be over with. The end of the world is going to come before I get to where I should be.” Not so! You can look forward to doing it right—getting married, having a family, seeing your children and grandchildren, maybe even great-grandchildren.


There's no contradiction here at all. The only "world" that is going to end when the Second Coming occurs is the world of the wicked. The earth - for those who have lived a Celestial and Terrestrial law - will still continue, as will marriage, child bearing and rearing, life, and progression, children and grandchildren. Elder Packer is speaking here, I think, for those who have "ears to hear" in the scriptural sense.

The one really substantial difference, beyond some fairly large biological/physical changes in the earth as a planet, that will attend the Millennium, will be the absence of the wicked, and of wickedness. That "world" will have passed.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_LDSToronto
_Emeritus
Posts: 2515
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:11 am

Re: Why Many LDS are Angry at Packer's GC Talk

Post by _LDSToronto »

Droopy wrote:
One criticism I’ve heard is that Packer, in his talk, contradicted what has seemingly been a common promise in the patriarchal blessings of the Saints, namely, that a person will be blessed to live to see the Second Coming, or to be alive during the Millennium. In the last two lines of his talk, Packer said:

[quote "Packer"]Sometimes you might be tempted to think as I did from time to time in my youth: “The way things are going, the world’s going to be over with. The end of the world is going to come before I get to where I should be.” Not so! You can look forward to doing it right—getting married, having a family, seeing your children and grandchildren, maybe even great-grandchildren.


There's no contradiction here at all. The only "world" that is going to end when the Second Coming occurs is the world of the wicked. The earth - for those who have lived a Celestial and Terrestrial law - will still continue, as will marriage, child bearing and rearing, life, and progression, children and grandchildren. Elder Packer is speaking here, I think, for those who have "ears to hear" in the scriptural sense.

The one really substantial difference, beyond some fairly large biological/physical changes in the earth as a planet, that will attend the Millennium, will be the absence of the wicked, and of wickedness. That "world" will have passed.


Epic.Fail.

H.
"Others cannot endure their own littleness unless they can translate it into meaningfulness on the largest possible level."
~ Ernest Becker
"Whether you think of it as heavenly or as earthly, if you love life immortality is no consolation for death."
~ Simone de Beauvoir
_Hades
_Emeritus
Posts: 859
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2010 5:27 am

Re: Why Many LDS are Angry at Packer's GC Talk

Post by _Hades »

Droopy wrote:There's no contradiction here at all. The only "world" that is going to end when the Second Coming occurs is the world of the wicked. The earth - for those who have lived a Celestial and Terrestrial law - will still continue, as will marriage, child bearing and rearing, life, and progression, children and grandchildren. Elder Packer is speaking here, I think, for those who have "ears to hear" in the scriptural sense.

The one really substantial difference, beyond some fairly large biological/physical changes in the earth as a planet, that will attend the Millennium, will be the absence of the wicked, and of wickedness. That "world" will have passed.

Hey Droopy, what will your God do with anti-Mormons like me?
I'm the apostate your bishop warned you about.
_bcspace
_Emeritus
Posts: 18534
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:48 pm

Re: Why Many LDS are Angry at Packer's GC Talk

Post by _bcspace »

I don't have a big beef with it, although it does seem to contradict previous Church positions on the second coming - so it is significant.


What would those be?
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_gramps
_Emeritus
Posts: 2485
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:43 pm

Re: Why Many LDS are Angry at Packer's GC Talk

Post by _gramps »

edited: read it a little closer. I was wrong.

Nothing to see here. Move along.
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil...
Adrian Beverland
_ludwigm
_Emeritus
Posts: 10158
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:07 am

Re: Why Many LDS are Angry at Packer's GC Talk

Post by _ludwigm »

gramps wrote:...Move along.

But... this is a study case.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_Everybody Wang Chung
_Emeritus
Posts: 4056
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:53 am

Re: Why Many LDS are Angry at Packer's GC Talk

Post by _Everybody Wang Chung »

Droopy wrote:
One criticism I’ve heard is that Packer, in his talk, contradicted what has seemingly been a common promise in the patriarchal blessings of the Saints, namely, that a person will be blessed to live to see the Second Coming, or to be alive during the Millennium. In the last two lines of his talk, Packer said:

[quote= "Packer"]Sometimes you might be tempted to think as I did from time to time in my youth: “The way things are going, the world’s going to be over with. The end of the world is going to come before I get to where I should be.” Not so! You can look forward to doing it right—getting married, having a family, seeing your children and grandchildren, maybe even great-grandchildren.


There's no contradiction here at all. The only "world" that is going to end when the Second Coming occurs is the world of the wicked. The earth - for those who have lived a Celestial and Terrestrial law - will still continue, as will marriage, child bearing and rearing, life, and progression, children and grandchildren. Elder Packer is speaking here, I think, for those who have "ears to hear" in the scriptural sense.

The one really substantial difference, beyond some fairly large biological/physical changes in the earth as a planet, that will attend the Millennium, will be the absence of the wicked, and of wickedness. That "world" will have passed.



Droopy,

I think we are entitled to take Packer's talk at face value. Packer's language was clear and unambiguous. I don't think when he addressed the Second Coming he was speaking only to those who have "ears to hear" in the scriptural sense.

Packer was mainly addressing his comments on the Second Coming to the youth of the Church to assuage any concerns or fears. It would be fair to say that one can rest assured the Second Coming will not be happening any time in the near future.

Now, I'm not sure what to make of the literally millions (and mine too) of patriarchial blessings that promise individuals they will not die until the Second Coming. Maybe some members are owed a do-over?
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

Daniel C. Peterson, 2014
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Re: Why Many LDS are Angry at Packer's GC Talk

Post by _harmony »

Everybody Wang Chung wrote:Now, I'm not sure what to make of the literally millions (and mine too) of patriarchial blessings that promise individuals they will not die until the Second Coming. Maybe some members are owed a do-over?


Packer cannot be held responsible for the lack of discernment by untold numbers of patriarchs. They saw through a glass darkly, while he sees with the eyes of a duly set apart prophet, seer, and revelator. Therefore... we have it from an authoritive source... the Second Coming isn't coming anytime soon.

ETA: to all those who thought they'd be saved from their financial stupidity by the precipitous arrival of the Second Coming... think again. The eat, drink, be merry and spend/borrow money like there's no tomorrow because tomorrow we're saved crew missed out again.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
Post Reply