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Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:04 am**

This is an excerpt from a story where a king is questioning a young lady regarding her atheism:

King - "But, what is right and wrong, you've....Well, you've discarded that."

YW - "Just because i do not accept the teachings of the devotaries does not mean I've discarded a belief in right and wrong."

King - "But the Almighty determines what is right!"

YW - "Must someone, some unseen thing, declare what is right for it to be right? I believe that my own morality - which answers only to my heart-is more sure and true than the morality of those who do right only because they fear retribution."

King - "But that is the soul of law", the king said, sounding confused. "If there is no punishment, there can only be chaos."

YW - "If there were no law, some men would do as they wish, yes," she said. "But isn't it remarkable that, given the chance for personal gain at the cost of others, so many people choose what is right?"

King - "Because they fear the Almighty."

YW - "No." she said. "I think something innate in us understands that seeking the good of society is usually best for the individual as well. Humankind is noble, when we give it the chance to be. That nobility is something that exists independent of any god's decree."

This passage comes from a fantasy novel written by Brandon Sanderson called The Way of Kings. Its a great book. Some of you may recognize Mr. Sanderson as the BYU graduate/writer that was selected to complete the The Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan after he died. I've read his Mistborn series as well and really enjoyed them.

Anyway, I thought this was interesting because as a Mormon, he really makes a persuasive argument here for Atheism in the story (there is more in the book but this was just a good snippet). The king also sounds a little book of mormonish too "If ye say there is no law, etc, etc.....". I highly recommend his books.

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:38 am**

The study of where our own morality comes from is a study of faith. Do we have faith that what we feel is right is indeed right? But where does that come from? Is it built in by evolution which by definition is survival of the fittest? I don't think so. But that discussion is a good one.

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:25 am**

I immediately recognized that as Way of Kings. Brandon is a friend of my husband's and we usually meet up with him when he comes through town on his tours.

I really loved the entire Jasnah Kholin / Shallan Davar plotline. It was the first time I had seen Brandon write about a sustained relationship between two women in one of his books (although I have not read them all), and it was a scholarly mentor-student relationship at that. I wish he would do it more often.

And yes, Jasnah's atheism is portrayed quite sympathetically and thoughtfully. My favorite quote from the book (p. 979):

Jasnah looked over her sheets of paper. "Do you know the real difference between me and a believer?"

Shallan shook her head.

"It strikes me that religion---in its essence---seeks to take natural events and ascribe supernatural causes to them. I, however, seek to take supernatural events and find the natural meanings behind them. Perhaps that is the final dividing line between science and religion. Opposite sides of a card."

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:56 pm**

The creation is a dividing line. Ones view of its purpose makes the difference in which path you will take on your road to faith. If one sees the creation as the answer to all questions then that person will embrace the world and see all through that lens. If someone sees past the creation to a power behind it then the creation is but a stage in which we play. Both views require faith they just point in different directions.

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:00 pm**

Franktalk wrote:The study of where our own morality comes from is a study of faith. Do we have faith that what we feel is right is indeed right?

Well, it depends on what you consider moral. If it's stuff like "worship god X" or "don't wear more than one earring" then the only way to support that stuff is through faith, because not obeying those arbitrary rules hurts nobody. There's nothing intrinsically right or wrong about those rules.

But for my own sense of morality, I need no faith at all. It's wrong to cause harm to others, and it's right to help. Full stop. Faith need not apply.

Franktalk wrote:But where does that come from? Is it built in by evolution which by definition is survival of the fittest? I don't think so.

Why not?

by the way, do you understand what "fitness" is in evolutionary terms? Hint: it's not the animals that pump iron.

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:23 pm**

Some Schmo wrote:Well, it depends on what you consider moral. If it's stuff like "worship god X" or "don't wear more than one earring" then the only way to support that stuff is through faith, because not obeying those arbitrary rules hurts nobody. There's nothing intrinsically right or wrong about those rules.

But for my own sense of morality, I need no faith at all. It's wrong to cause harm to others, and it's right to help. Full stop. Faith need not apply.

by the way, do you understand what "fitness" is in evolutionary terms? Hint: it's not the animals that pump iron.

I have read many posts by people who believe in evolution say that they have morals that are part of their evolutionary makeup. I have had no one tell me how that came about. Just how does evolution explain a moral code?

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:51 pm**

Franktalk wrote:I have read many posts by people who believe in evolution say that they have morals that are part of their evolutionary makeup. I have had no one tell me how that came about. Just how does evolution explain a moral code?

According to talk origins:

Humans have evolved to be social animals. In a social setting, cooperation and even altruism lead to better fitness. The process of evolution leads naturally to social animals such as humans developing ethical principles such as the Golden Rule.

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:05 pm**

That is an opinion. What I want to know is how it happened. If indeed that opinion is based on study then what study?

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:25 pm**

Franktalk wrote:The study of where our own morality comes from is a study of faith. Do we have faith that what we feel is right is indeed right? But where does that come from? Is it built in by evolution which by definition is survival of the fittest? I don't think so. But that discussion is a good one.

Morality predates faith. And our basic empathetic instinct is indeed an evolved trait.

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:36 pm**

Buffalo wrote:Morality predates faith. And our basic empathetic instinct is indeed an evolved trait.

That is an opinion. Where is the science to back it up? Or did a bunch of people just vote on it?

Normally I get the old answer that evolution is true therefore everything observed is part of evolution and since social structures are observed they must come from evolution.

Is this what you are saying? Notice any circles?

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