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Madison wrote:I am kind of blown away that apologists are still using the same old arguments (ie. the short amount of time it took Joseph Smith to dictate the Book of Mormon).

Madison wrote:I read through Peterson's article today in the Deseret News where he argues that the complexity and consistency of the Book of Mormon means that it must be true

Sethbag wrote:There's an idiot savant somewhere that can memorize the name of every single person in a large studio audience, having heard the names just once. What does that prove?

Mozart was writing his first music at a younger age than most of us go to kindergarten. What does that prove?

I have no problem conceding that Joseph Smith was an extraordinary individual. Arguments like "he did something you and I couldn't imagine being able to do in such a short time!" mean nothing. All sorts of people alive today can do things I couldn't possibly imagine being able to do, at all, ever, regardless of the time given me. Are these people prophets too?

Sethbag wrote:Besides, if Joseph Smith had help in writing the Book of Mormon, or the story was essentially finished before the mummer's farce with the face pressed down into the hat to see the translation revealed in his magic rock, then that would answer the whole "too short a time" argument, wouldn't it?

Sethbag wrote: Joseph couldn't have done it? What's more likely, that a human being, inspired by current themes and prior works of fiction (View of the Hebrews?), wrote a book in a short amount of time? Or that that same human being pressed his face into a hat, and in a magic rock viewed the translation of ancient Hebrew, written in Egyptian characters on plates of gold by ancient American Christians, which plates were located in another room altogether from the one this person was in?

Drifting wrote:Here is an example of remarkable consistency from the Book of Mormon.

It can be found in 2nd Nephi Chapter 15.

15 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.

16 And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land,

On another board a poster mentioned some fishy verses in the Book of Mormon, where the authors start a thought, then correct themselves.


Quote:

Alma 10:5 Nevertheless, after all this, I never have known much of the ways of the Lord, and his mysteries and marvelous power. I said I never had known much of these things; but behold, I mistake, for I have seen much of his mysteries and his marvelous power; yea, even in the preservation of the lives of this people.

Alma 46:40 And there were some who died with fevers, which at some seasons of the year were very frequent in the land—but not so much so with fevers, because of the excellent qualities of the many plants and roots which God had prepared to remove the cause of diseases, to which men were subject by the nature of the climate—

Alma 49:2 And behold, the city had been rebuilt, and Moroni had stationed an army by the borders of the city, and they had cast up dirt round about to shield them from the arrows and the stones of the Lamanites; for behold, they fought with stones and with arrows.
Alma 49:3 Behold, I said that the city of Ammonihah had been rebuilt. I say unto you, yea, that it was in part rebuilt; and because the Lamanites had destroyed it once because of the iniquity of the people, they supposed that it would again become an easy prey for them.


Here are a few more that sound like the author is making up his mind, or changing his mind as he goes along. It's hard to imagine this much rambling while slowly and painstakingly pounding out your words on gold plates.


Quote:

Alma 50:32 Now behold, the people who were in the land Bountiful, or rather Moroni, feared that they would hearken to the words of Morianton.

Alma 53:10 And now behold, I have somewhat to say concerning the people of Ammon, who, in the beginning, were Lamanites; but by Ammon and his brethren, or rather by the power and word of God, they had been converted unto the Lord;

Alma 54:5 Behold, Ammoron, I have written unto you somewhat concerning this war which ye have waged against my people, or rather which thy brother hath waged against them

Mosiah 8:17 But a seer can know of things which are past, and also of things which are to come, and by them shall all things be revealed, or, rather, shall secret things be made manifest, and hidden things shall come to light, and things which are not known shall be made known by them, and also things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known.

Drifting wrote:From a previous thread on this board

On another board a poster mentioned some fishy verses in the Book of Mormon, where the authors start a thought, then correct themselves.


Quote:

Alma 10:5 Nevertheless, after all this, I never have known much of the ways of the Lord, and his mysteries and marvelous power. I said I never had known much of these things; but behold, I mistake, for I have seen much of his mysteries and his marvelous power; yea, even in the preservation of the lives of this people.

Alma 46:40 And there were some who died with fevers, which at some seasons of the year were very frequent in the land—but not so much so with fevers, because of the excellent qualities of the many plants and roots which God had prepared to remove the cause of diseases, to which men were subject by the nature of the climate—

Alma 49:2 And behold, the city had been rebuilt, and Moroni had stationed an army by the borders of the city, and they had cast up dirt round about to shield them from the arrows and the stones of the Lamanites; for behold, they fought with stones and with arrows.
Alma 49:3 Behold, I said that the city of Ammonihah had been rebuilt. I say unto you, yea, that it was in part rebuilt; and because the Lamanites had destroyed it once because of the iniquity of the people, they supposed that it would again become an easy prey for them.


Here are a few more that sound like the author is making up his mind, or changing his mind as he goes along. It's hard to imagine this much rambling while slowly and painstakingly pounding out your words on gold plates.


Quote:

Alma 50:32 Now behold, the people who were in the land Bountiful, or rather Moroni, feared that they would hearken to the words of Morianton.

Alma 53:10 And now behold, I have somewhat to say concerning the people of Ammon, who, in the beginning, were Lamanites; but by Ammon and his brethren, or rather by the power and word of God, they had been converted unto the Lord;

Alma 54:5 Behold, Ammoron, I have written unto you somewhat concerning this war which ye have waged against my people, or rather which thy brother hath waged against them

Mosiah 8:17 But a seer can know of things which are past, and also of things which are to come, and by them shall all things be revealed, or, rather, shall secret things be made manifest, and hidden things shall come to light, and things which are not known shall be made known by them, and also things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known.

just me wrote:
Wow. Hadn't seen those particular verses pointed out before. Crazy.

As the argument goes among Oxfordians (as scholars who support that de Vere penned the plays are called), Shakespeare simply did not have the intellectual firepower. Born working-class and possessed of only a sixth-grade formal education, such a rural rube would not have gained the intimate knowledge of law, medicine, Latin, Greek, or Renaissance Italy that his plays reveal, theorists say. What’s in a name? indeed.