Page 1 of 1

What do the Book of Mormon manuscripts (O) and (P) suggest?

Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 6:03 pm
by _sock puppet
Royal Skousen wrote:The printed versions of the Book of Mormon derive from two manuscripts. The first, called the original manuscript (O), was written by at least three scribes as Joseph Smith translated and dictated. The most important scribe was Oliver Cowdery. This manuscript was begun no later than April 1829 and finished in June 1829.

A copy of the original was then made by Oliver Cowdery and two other scribes. This copy is called the printer's manuscript (P), since it was the one normally used to set the type for the first (1830) edition of the Book of Mormon. It was begun in July 1829 and finished early in 1830.

The printer's manuscript is not an exact copy of the original manuscript. There are on the average three changes per original manuscript page. These changes appear to be natural scribal errors; there is little or no evidence of conscious editing. Most of the changes are minor, and about one in five produce a discernible difference in meaning. Because they were all relatively minor, most of the errors thus introduced into the text have remained in the printed editions of the Book of Mormon and have not been detected and corrected except by reference to the original manuscript. About twenty of these errors were corrected in the 1981 edition.

The compositor for the 1830 edition added punctuation, paragraphing, and other printing marks to about one-third of the pages of the printer's manuscript. These same marks appear on one fragment of the original, indicating that it was used at least once in typesetting the 1830 edition.

In preparation for the second (1837) edition, hundreds of grammatical changes and a few textual emendations were made in P. After the publication of this edition, P was retained by Oliver Cowdery. After his death in 1850, his brother-in-law, David Whitmer, kept P until his death in 1888. In 1903 Whitmer's grandson sold P to the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which owns it today. It is wholly extant except for two lines at the bottom of the first leaf.

The original manuscript was not consulted for the editing of the 1837 edition. However, in producing the 1840 edition, Joseph Smith used O to restore some of its original readings. In October 1841, Joseph Smith placed O in the cornerstone of the Nauvoo House. Over forty years later, Lewis Bidamon, Emma Smith's second husband, opened the cornerstone and found that water seepage had destroyed most of O. The surviving pages were handed out to various individuals during the 1880s.

Today approximately 25 percent of the text of O survives: 1 Nephi 2 through 2 Nephi 1,with gaps; Alma 22 through Helaman 3,with gaps; and a few other fragments. All but one of the authentic pages and fragments of O are housed in the archives of the LDS Historical Department; one-half of a sheet (from 1 Nephi 14) is owned by the University of Utah.


Have the O remnants and P, but especially the O remnants, been examined at the points where the copying from the KJV Bible each began and ended, to detect any irregularities in the handwriting processes of the scribes, that might account for a different method being used when the Bible passages were being lifted as compared to when the non-Biblical passages were being written down?

Re: What do the Book of Mormon manuscripts (O) and (P) suggest?

Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 6:20 pm
by _harmony
sock puppet wrote:[
Have the O remnants and P, but especially the O remnants, been examined at the points where the copying from the KJV Bible each began and ended, to detect any irregularities in the handwriting processes of the scribes, that might account for a different method being used when the Bible passages were being lifted as compared to when the non-Biblical passages were being written down?


Do you seriously think the church is going to allow any but the most faithful to see those scraps long enough to actually study them?

Re: What do the Book of Mormon manuscripts (O) and (P) suggest?

Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 6:32 pm
by _sock puppet
harmony wrote:
sock puppet wrote:[
Have the O remnants and P, but especially the O remnants, been examined at the points where the copying from the KJV Bible each began and ended, to detect any irregularities in the handwriting processes of the scribes, that might account for a different method being used when the Bible passages were being lifted as compared to when the non-Biblical passages were being written down?


Do you seriously think the church is going to allow any but the most faithful to see those scraps long enough to actually study them?


Not knowingly. But perhaps there has been someone allowed like Quinn once got to look at many of the old documents and artifacts, and then Chris Smith got to look (albeit restricted) at the Sensen papyrus.

Re: What do the Book of Mormon manuscripts (O) and (P) suggest?

Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 6:36 pm
by _Cardinal Biggles
I wonder how many of the Hebraisms about which Mopologists like to brag were produced by the changes from O to P.

Re: What do the Book of Mormon manuscripts (O) and (P) suggest?

Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:24 pm
by _malkie
sock puppet wrote:
Royal Skousen wrote:...

The printer's manuscript is not an exact copy of the original manuscript. There are on the average three changes per original manuscript page. These changes appear to be natural scribal errors; there is little or no evidence of conscious editing. Most of the changes are minor, and about one in five produce a discernible difference in meaning. Because they were all relatively minor, most of the errors thus introduced into the text have remained in the printed editions of the Book of Mormon and have not been detected and corrected except by reference to the original manuscript. About twenty of these errors were corrected in the 1981 edition.
...


...

So, for each 5 manuscript pages the "natural scribal errors" have created 3 changes that "produce a discernible difference in meaning".

Even if the changes are "all relatively minor", that seems like a lot of noticeable differences in meaning. I wonder how Royal Skousen determined the severity of each change - what does "relatively" mean? Relative to what?

Re: What do the Book of Mormon manuscripts (O) and (P) suggest?

Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:35 pm
by _sock puppet
Royal Skousen wrote:...

The printer's manuscript is not an exact copy of the original manuscript. There are on the average three changes per original manuscript page. These changes appear to be natural scribal errors; there is little or no evidence of conscious editing. Most of the changes are minor, and about one in five produce a discernible difference in meaning. Because they were all relatively minor, most of the errors thus introduced into the text have remained in the printed editions of the Book of Mormon and have not been detected and corrected except by reference to the original manuscript. About twenty of these errors were corrected in the 1981 edition.
...
malkie wrote:So, for each 5 manuscript pages the "natural scribal errors" have created 3 changes that "produce a discernible difference in meaning".

Even if the changes are "all relatively minor", that seems like a lot of noticeable differences in meaning. I wonder how Royal Skousen determined the severity of each change - what does "relatively" mean? Relative to what?

"relatively minor" is akin to Schryver's "significant word" index, I am sure.

Re: What do the Book of Mormon manuscripts (O) and (P) suggest?

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:44 am
by _Drifting
God took them back, along with the gold plates, the brass plates, the Uma Thermin, the Abraham papyrus, the revelation banning blacks, the diary containing the date of the restoration of the MK and all Nephite and Lamanite artefacts.

Re: What do the Book of Mormon manuscripts (O) and (P) suggest?

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:43 pm
by _Sethbag
Looking at those ranges of chapters said to still exist from the O document, it looks like 1Nephi 20 and 1Nephi 21 both contain passages from Isaiah, chapters 48 and 49, respectively, so you could actually see whether the text just flowed through those chapters as if nothing happened, or if it looked markedly different in some way because material from the KJV was being copied in, rather than new material coming out "off the cuff" or whatever.

So, does anyone know if it's possible to find images of these O pages on the web?

Re: What do the Book of Mormon manuscripts (O) and (P) suggest?

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:29 pm
by _bcspace
Unable to get any traction on the Book of Abraham, you've now switched to trying to tackle the Book of Mormon?

Re: What do the Book of Mormon manuscripts (O) and (P) suggest?

Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:01 am
by _sock puppet
bcspace wrote:Unable to get any traction on the Book of Abraham, you've now switched to trying to tackle the Book of Mormon?

Having slayed the BoAbr as a fabrication, broadening my horizons to see how much evidence JSJr left for fabricating the Book of Mormon.