Joseph Smith turning back to Certain Death

[_Fanny Alger]

One argument I hear often is that if Joseph Smith was really a fraud then he would NOT have turned back to face certain death at Carthage. He would have kept on going into the sunset with Hyrum to start up another city somewhere in the West. Has anyone else heard this line of thinking before and what are your thoughts?

[_Dr. Shades]

Yes, I've heard that line of thinking before. I think it's extremely flawed, to whit:

Joseph DIDN'T think he was going back for certain death. He thought he was going back to face trial and possibly punishment like any other common lawbreaker for once in his life instead of just slipping away as usual.

The only reason people throw around the phrase "certain death" is because that's what ended up becoming part of the historical record. At the time, dying was anything but certain.

People who throw out that line of thinking always conveniently forget to apply it across-the-board. For example, you never hear them saying, "David Koresh must NOT have been a fraud, otherwise he wouldn't have remained at Waco to face certain death."

Right?

[_Nightlion]

One argument I hear often is that if Joseph Smith was really a fraud then he would NOT have turned back to face certain death at Carthage. He would have kept on going into the sunset with Hyrum to start up another city somewhere in the West. Has anyone else heard this line of thinking before and what are your thoughts?

Welcome to the board Ms Alger. Here's hoping that you are all the Bathsheba we might expect. I wrote a while back that Joseph and Hyrum so loathed the prospect of living the 'principle' openly knowing that they were already betrayed months before in the Kinderhook snare that they saw the writing on the wall. Joseph expressed publicly his death-wish to the Relief Society that according to his prayers he was appointed elsewhere and that they would not have him to be with them long.

I said that the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor was a deliberate act to enrage their enemies and seal their fate to death by mob violence. I think further that the main reason for Joseph's despondency was the spiritual failure he realized too late that the Church was lost. Zion was not possible. He had allowed the Gentiles to run with the gospel and did not reign in a Zion Standard that could fulfill the commandments of the Lord. Zion had to wait for a better day and that day was no time soon.

I further think that he knew polygamy was the Lord's plan to keep the Church from being absorbed back into mainstream Protestantism for he knew and said that the Devil would overcome them if he were not with them to counsel them. He and Hyrum agreed that they could not see themselves leading the Church further and death was the only honorable way out in my opinion. So they opted out.

Yeah, fraudsters do not go gently into the night.

[_Dr. Shades]

Yeah, fraudsters do not go gently into the night.

Darn right they don't. Instead, they do stuff like get into gun battles with people who storm their jail cells.

[_Nightlion]

Yes, I've heard that line of thinking before. I think it's extremely flawed, to whit:

Joseph DIDN'T think he was going back for certain death. He thought he was going back to face trial and possibly punishment like any other common lawbreaker for once in his life instead of just slipping away as usual.

The only reason people throw around the phrase "certain death" is because that's what ended up becoming part of the historical record. At the time, dying was anything but certain.

People who throw out that line of thinking always conveniently forget to apply it across-the-board. For example, you never hear them saying, "David Koresh must've been a true prophet, otherwise he wouldn't have remained at Waco to face certain death."

Right?

Oh that's applicable. And just how was David Koresh getting out of Waco surrounded by federal agents already? Joseph could have easily marched his 100,000+ adherents into the Rocky Mountains of Mexico and declared themselves a new nation at the defiance of all. They would have succeeded too. May have taken the whole of California to boot. The evidence shows that he was despondent unto death. Speaking openly and publicly of death and dying on more than one occasion.

[_Nightlion]

Yeah, fraudsters do not go gently into the night.

Darn right they don't. Instead, they do stuff like get into gun battles with people who storm their jail cells.

Defending his friends. You know that. He went to the window to save the others.
Are you even capable of looking at Joseph squarely?

[_Fanny Alger]

Yes, I've heard that line of thinking before. I think it's extremely flawed, to whit:

Joseph DIDN'T think he was going back for certain death. He thought he was going back to face trial and possibly punishment like any other common lawbreaker for once in his life instead of just slipping away as usual.

The only reason people throw around the phrase "certain death" is because that's what ended up becoming part of the historical record. At the time, dying was anything but certain.

People who throw out that line of thinking always conveniently forget to apply it across-the-board. For example, you never hear them saying, "David Koresh must've been a true prophet, otherwise he wouldn't have remained at Waco to face certain death."

Right?

Thank you for the reply and I am glad you made this point because you would think Fawn Brodie would suggest in No Man Knows My History that "Joseph DIDN'T think he was going back for certain death." To my surprise she makes it CRYSTAL clear that he did think and was CONVINCED that he would be put to death. It was Hyrum that said, "Let us go back and put our trust in God, and we shall not be harmed." Joseph Smith had said, "If you go back, I will go with you, but we shall be butchered." (pg 385)

So, the question is where is it cited that Joseph Smith thought he was going back to face a trial? Is that just speculation? If anyone would have cited such a notion I am sure it would have been Brodie. I was half expecting her to bring up a passage from some obscure journal that says as much but nothing is there.

[_Nightlion]

Yes, I've heard that line of thinking before. I think it's extremely flawed, to whit:

Joseph DIDN'T think he was going back for certain death. He thought he was going back to face trial and possibly punishment like any other common lawbreaker for once in his life instead of just slipping away as usual.

The only reason people throw around the phrase "certain death" is because that's what ended up becoming part of the historical record. At the time, dying was anything but certain.

People who throw out that line of thinking always conveniently forget to apply it across-the-board. For example, you never hear them saying, "David Koresh must've been a true prophet, otherwise he wouldn't have remained at Waco to face certain death."

Right?

Thank you for the reply and I am glad you made this point because you would think Fawn Brodie would suggest in No Man Knows My History that "Joseph DIDN'T think he was going back for certain death." To my surprise she makes it CRYSTAL clear that he did think and was CONVINCED that he would be put to death. It was Hyrum that said, "Let us go back and put our trust in God, and we shall not be harmed." Joseph Smith had said, "If you go back, I will go with you, but we shall be butchered." (pg 385)

So, the question is where is it cited that Joseph Smith thought he was going back to face a trial? Is that just speculation? If anyone would have cited such a notion I am sure it would have been Brodie. I was half expecting her to bring up a passage from some obscure journal that says as much but nothing is there.

Joseph was a prophet who knew what reality had already seeded the Church with the tares of the devil. There was no way for him to remain in that circumstance. He said God appointed him elsewhere. Joseph was taken out from among the people who were not getting the gospel right. The two or three accounts of Joseph visiting subsequent leaders; Brigham Young, John Taylor and possibly Wilford Woodruff was ONLY to tell them to teach the people to get the Holy Ghost and THAT would lead the church aright. And those men could not do this any better than Joseph could. The gentiles would have none of it. The world was exploding with those things that the Gentiles seek, the things of this world. Zion waits.

[_Fanny Alger]

Joseph expressed publicly his death-wish to the Relief Society that according to his prayers he was appointed elsewhere and that they would not have him to be with them long.

Do you have a reference for this?

[_Nightlion]

Joseph expressed publicly his death-wish to the Relief Society that according to his prayers he was appointed elsewhere and that they would not have him to be with them long.

Do you have a reference for this?

I lent out my copy of Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith but this was spoken to the Relief Society in the last year or two of Joseph's life.
Finding a quote online from this book is a real bother its also in the Documentary History of the Church.

He said that the Church must be cleansed, that he would have a reformation and that he was surrounded by all sorts of characters........meaning, I believe that he realized how many tares had already infested the church.

Tomorrow I can get with who has my book and get the citations.