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Dear Maklelan,

In a thread discussing the potential effects of Mormonism's foundational claims on Mitt Romney's presidential campaign, you made the following assertion:

maklelan wrote:

Sethbag wrote:So Mormons get to suffer all of the problems of the Bible the same as all these other Bible-based religions.

I disagree that Latter-day Saints are beholden to anywhere near as many of the Bible's claims as those who assert the Bible's inerrancy.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=20966&start=42

Throughout that thread, you repeatedly implied that you think the Old Testament story of a talking donkey should not be taken seriously. You also suggested that there may be some Mormons who are biblical literalists, but that biblical literalism allegedly does not represent the LDS Church in general.

In support of your assertion, why don't you go ahead and point out a single supernatural story in the Bible that the LDS Church does not officially teach literally, actually happened as a historical event?

Pick anything you want: making an ax float on water, a prophet having bears attack kids who made fun of him, the Tower of Babel, the parting of the Red Sea, etc., etc. Which thing in the Bible---according to the Church, not you---did not really happen?

Just for fun, we'll start with official LDS curricula informing us about the true story of a talking donkey that really did happen:

Lesson 16: “I Cannot Go Beyond the Word of the Lord”, Old Testament Gospel Doctrine Teacher’s Manual, 73

God is angry with Balaam for going to Moab, knowing that he hopes for some reward from Balak. While on his way, Balaam learns the dangers of displeasing God when his donkey and an angel speak to him.
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The Lord chastened Balaam through the angel and the donkey.


Lesson 16: “I Cannot Go Beyond the Word of the Lord”, Old Testament Class Member Study Guide, 11–12

Numbers 22:22–35. God is angry with Balaam for going to Moab, knowing that he hopes for some reward from Balak. While on his way, Balaam learns the dangers of displeasing God when his donkey and an angel speak to him.

Oh, and feel free to include "symbolic" things, too. You know, like the beasts that the Book of Revelation talks about, which the Church officially teaches are not symbolic, but are actual living animals from other planets.

Doctrine and Covenants and Church History Seminary Student Guide

John saw glorified life forms that, though unfamiliar to us, are an important part of Heavenly Father’s creations. The Prophet Joseph Smith said of these creations: “I suppose John saw beings there of a thousand forms, that had been saved from ten thousand times ten thousand earths like this,—strange beasts of which we have no conception: all might be seen in heaven. The grand secret was to show John what there was in heaven” ( Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 291). At another time he said: “The four beasts were four of the most noble animals that had filled the measure of their creation, and had been saved from other worlds, because they were perfect: they were like angels in their sphere. We are not told where they came from, and I do not know; but they were seen and heard by John praising and glorifying God” (History of the Church, 5:343–44). Certainly this revelation opens our eyes to a universe much more complex and grand than we often suppose.

Also, to narrow down your research, I will point out that, per official LDS curricula, the story about the bears attacking those kids for making fun of a prophet really happened, too.

“Chapter 15: Living by Faith,” Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Wilford Woodruff

In addition to protecting the two missionaries from the Jackson County mob, the Lord protected them from other perils along the way. President Woodruff recounted one such experience. As he and his companion approached a grove of trees, a large black bear came out toward them. “We were not afraid of him,” he said, “for we were on the Lord’s business, and had not mocked God’s prophet as did the forty-two wicked children who said to Elisha ‘Go up thou bald head,’ for which they were torn by bears [see 2 Kings 2:23–24]. … When the bear got within eight rods of us [a distance of about 44 yards or 40 meters] he sat on his haunches and looked at us a moment, and then ran away; and we went on our way rejoicing.”

And Maklelan, I don't know why you seem to be skeptical about Moses parting the Red Sea, which official LDS doctrine (not the least of which is the Book of Mormon) teaches us was an actual historical event. Why should we be dubious about miracles like that? After all, the prophet Elisha really did part the waters of the River Jordan and really did make an ax head float.

"Lesson 29: “He Took Up … the Mantle of Elijah”," Old Testament: Gospel Doctrine Teacher’s Manual, (2001)

Elisha performed many great miracles, showing compassion for the people and giving further evidence that he was Elijah’s authorized successor. He parted the waters of Jordan, healed the waters of Jericho, multiplied a widow’s oil, raised a boy from the dead, healed people who had been poisoned, fed the hungry, healed Naaman’s leprosy, caused an ax to float, and guided kings in war. You may want to review some of these miracles from 2 Kings 2–6.

By the way, please don't waste time by suggesting that the story of Jonah and the "fish" might not have really happened.

Old Testament Student Manual

The account of Jonah being swallowed by a “great fish” has been the subject of much ridicule and controversy on the part of the world. They use this verse as one argument to sustain the belief that the book of Jonah is simply a parable and not a record of historical fact. Speaking to those who take such a position, Elder Joseph Fielding Smith said:

“Are we to reject it as being an impossibility and say that the Lord could not prepare a fish, or whale, to swallow Jonah? . . . Surely the Lord sits in the heavens and laughs at the wisdom of the scoffer, and then on a sudden answers his folly by a repetition of the miracle in dispute, or by the presentation of one still greater. . . .

“I believe, as did Mr. William J. Bryan, the story of Jonah. My chief reason for so believing is not in the fact that it is recorded in the Bible, or that the incident has been duplicated in our day, but in the fact that Jesus Christ, our Lord, believed it. The Jews sought him for a sign of his divinity. He gave them one, but not what they expected. The scoffers of his day, notwithstanding his mighty works, were incapable, because of sin, of believing.

“‘He answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the Prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.’” ( Doctrines of Salvation, 2:314–15.)

The Hebrew word taneen used in Jonah and the Greek word katos used in the New Testament describe any sea creature of immense proportion. Sharks are common to the Mediterranean and have throats sufficiently large to admit the body of a man. Of course, the miraculous nature of this event lies in the fact that Jonah could survive in the digestive tract of a large fish for three days as much as in the fact that he could be swallowed whole.

Even though this is a call-out thread for Maklelan, any and all comers are welcome. Please feel free, one and all, to come up with a single purported event recorded in the Bible that the LDS Church does not accept as literal, actual history. You know, since Mormons are not biblical literalists or anything like that.

chirp chirp chirp chirp

I'm not a Mormon and have never been to an LDS service, but it's always been my understanding that LDsism is not literalists and that they/it can discard anythng it wishes. There's that whole "as far as it's translated correctly" thing.

Which, imho, invites a whole new set of problems. All I have to do is make it seem reasonable that the universe was created in 6 days and that all the animals would fit on the ark. (insert smiley)

Mercy is one Biblical claim that Mormonism has struggled with accepting, though they do allow it a bit part in salvation.

Wow. This would be a great thread if Mr. Mak could find his balls.