Joseph Smith's Personal Claim to Fame.

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_mentalgymnast

Joseph Smith's Personal Claim to Fame.

Post by _mentalgymnast »

He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil ... [Joseph Smith—H 1:33]


Can we be assured that Joseph Smith himself said this? If so, he was rather prescient wasn't he? I've often wondered why he would insert this admission/intuition into the historical record. It seems as though he could just as well have left it out.

In the interview that John Dehlin had with Terryl Givens, Dr. Givens made a comment something to the effect that the restoration sits as it does in a position by which people have to make a choice whether to believe or disbelieve without any absolutely confirming evidence either pro or con, for or against, the truth claims of the church.

This seems to be the case.

It is interesting that Joseph Smith seemed to have been clued in or guessed that this would be so. Or I suppose he could have had the natural foresight to know that he was going to do/teach things that would create a playing field in which doubt would be just as reasonable as belief.

He seems to have been right on target with this "prophecy". Or maybe an angel had something to do with it...

We're left to wonder.

Regards,
MG
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Re: Joseph Smith's Personal Claim to Fame.

Post by _Sethbag »

Hadn't Joseph Smith's name already been held for both good and evil by the time this account was recorded in his history? If so, it's not a prediction at all.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
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Re: Joseph Smith's Personal Claim to Fame.

Post by _Sethbag »

Also, this calls to mind the voice of Warren Jeffs telling young girls, before he screwed them on the bed inside the temple in his Texas compound, that if the world knew what he was doing they'd hang him from the tallest tree. Well, the world found out, and though he's not hanging from the tallest tree, sure enough he's gonna spend the rest of his natural life in prison. How could he have known?!?

Those who do evil have to know that if their evil becomes known, they will become known as evil-doers. This may even be a tautology. If Joseph knew he was committed dishonest acts and screwing people over, there's a very good reason why he might predict that someday his reputation would be trashed.

"What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one."
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_mentalgymnast

Re: Joseph Smith's Personal Claim to Fame.

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Sethbag wrote:Hadn't Joseph Smith's name already been held for both good and evil by the time this account was recorded in his history? If so, it's not a prediction at all.


Good question. What's the answer? It's the scope and breadth of his pronouncement that is interesting.

Did other religious innovators of his day have the gall to come up with such a bold pronouncement, or was this unique to Joseph Smith?

But again, he was right, wasn't he? Throughout much of the world, Joseph Smith is known for both good and evil.

I find Terryl Given's perspective a good fit juxtaposed next to this prophecy purported to be from Joseph.

Regards,
MG
_mentalgymnast

Re: Joseph Smith's Personal Claim to Fame.

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Cecil O. Samuelson:

That is an amazing prophecy for any 17-year-old. Think of the statistical improbability of the assertion that his “name should be had for good and evil” around the world. Yet the name of Joseph Smith is widely known among virtually all of the nations of the earth.

How is Joseph Smith’s name known in your heart? When Oliver Cowdery served as Joseph’s scribe for the Book of Mormon translation, the Lord said to Oliver, “Therefore be diligent; stand by my servant Joseph, faithfully, in whatsoever difficult circumstances he may be for the word’s sake” (D&C 6:18). What did the phrase “stand by my servant Joseph” mean to Oliver, and what should it mean to us?

Of those who have heard of Joseph, their knowledge and understanding are highly variable and occur at different levels. Let me mention a few of those levels. I hope as I mention these that you might mentally note where you stand.

Recognition: Increasingly, people recognize the name Joseph Smith and are able to relate him to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Book of Mormon, and other basics of our faith. Some know enough, or believe that they know enough, to have developed opinions about him—positive or negative.

Appreciation: Of those who recognize the Prophet Joseph by name, some know that his accomplishments have made a difference. They know that he organized a church and movement that has grown dramatically and has influenced many lives. Although they may or may not believe in his work or admire his contributions, they acknowledge that the world is different because of his life and efforts.

Admiration: Many who appreciate that Joseph made a difference also admire many of his accomplishments and contributions. Although still not necessarily subscribing to his teachings or his mission, they admire what he did in Kirtland, Missouri, and Nauvoo. They admire his ability to enlist a following and to inspire people to sacrifice greatly for the cause he espoused.

Testimony: A subset of those who recognize, appreciate, and admire the Prophet Joseph are those who have a testimony of the truthfulness of his mission, his teachings, and his accounts of encounters with heavenly beings. They have no reservations about him or the doctrines he revealed, but they may not have fully internalized what this should mean to them.

True loyalty (or those who stand by him): Some, and I hope this includes you, have a testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith and his unique and special mission. It is to you that I frame my question: What does it mean to “stand by my servant Joseph”? It means more than just recognition, appreciation—even admiration, belief, and testimony. The counsel given to Oliver Cowdery is illustrative of what I mean. To Oliver’s great credit, he never denied his testimony of the events and experiences he had with Joseph Smith. Unfortunately, he did not live up to what the Lord required of him and lost his place to one more faithful (see D&C 124:95).

http://magazine.BYU.edu/?act=view&a=1800


Then of course there's the flip side...

Drum roll...

That would be your cue. <g>

Regards,
MG
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Re: Joseph Smith's Personal Claim to Fame.

Post by _Sethbag »

According to this wikipedia entry on the History of the Church, it sounds like the accounts that would have contained this "prediction" were probably written in about 1838 or 1839. An awful lot of "good and evil" speaking about Joseph Smith had already occurred by then.

The fact that Joseph predicted that this speaking would occur across the entire world may seem way more bold than most religious founders would dare, but it actually makes sense in light of Joseph Smith's apparent megalomania. He compared himself to Muhammed, he compared himself to Jesus Christ, and just a couple years after this prediction was written down, he'd made himself a Lieutenant General (higher ranking than the highest-ranking U.S. Army officer at the time - a pretty bold move), and then ran for President of the United States. This was a guy who thought pretty friggin highly of himself, and thought that others should too.

Also, I don't agree with Givens. He makes it sound like the evidence pro- is equal and opposite the evidence that is con- Joseph's prophetic calling. I couldn't disagree more.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
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Re: Joseph Smith's Personal Claim to Fame.

Post by _Sethbag »

Cecil Samuelson says this is an amazing prophecy for a 17-year old. The most obvious problem is that it was recorded by a ~33 year old. Did the angel really say that to the 17-year old? Who knows? But the 33-year old certainly already had experienced his name being spoken both good and evil of by the time he recorded this.

By the way, it's funny to read Samuelson discuss the statistical improbability of Joseph Smith's doing whatever. Really?
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
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Re: Joseph Smith's Personal Claim to Fame.

Post by _Darth J »

mentalgymnast wrote:
He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil ... [Joseph Smith—H 1:33]


Can we be assured that Joseph Smith himself said this?


No. http://byustudies.BYU.edu/PDFLibrary/11.4Jessee.pdf

If so, he was rather prescient wasn't he? I've often wondered why he would insert this admission/intuition into the historical record. It seems as though he could just as well have left it out.


Much like the admissions/intuitions about Mary Baker Eddy. Or the admissions/intuitions of Charles Taze Russell.

In the interview that John Dehlin had with Terryl Givens, Dr. Givens made a comment something to the effect that the restoration sits as it does in a position by which people have to make a choice whether to believe or disbelieve without any absolutely confirming evidence either pro or con, for or against, the truth claims of the church.

This seems to be the case.


.....with every religion or belief system that has ever existed. Since you are here approving the comment that there is no absolute confirming evidence in favor of the LDS Church's truth claims, you likewise have no absolute confirming evidence that Anubis is not going to weigh your heart against a feather after you die, or that Odin will bring you to Valhalla if you have been vigorous in battle.

It is interesting that Joseph Smith seemed to have been clued in or guessed that this would be so. Or I suppose he could have had the natural foresight to know that he was going to do/teach things that would create a playing field in which doubt would be just as reasonable as belief.

He seems to have been right on target with this "prophecy". Or maybe an angel had something to do with it...


The reason this is begging the question is that you have not established who wrote the statement attributed to Joseph Smith (which is in turn attributed to Moroni), or when, or under what circumstances.

It is interesting that Mary Baker Eddy seems to have been clued in or guessed about her own world-wide fame, too.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Joseph Smith's Personal Claim to Fame.

Post by _Darth J »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Did other religious innovators of his day have the gall to come up with such a bold pronouncement,


Yes.

or was this unique to Joseph Smith?


No.

But again, he was right, wasn't he? Throughout much of the world, Joseph Smith is known for both good and evil.


Ellen White made some lucky guesses, too. Unless the spirit of prophecy had something to do with it.

James Strang made some prophecies like this, too. And look: here we are, on the world wide web, discussing him. So his name is known for good and evil in all the world, too. Maybe an angel also had something to do with that.

I find Terryl Given's perspective a good fit juxtaposed next to this prophecy purported to be from Joseph.

Regards,
MG


His perspective of the truism that Mormonism has no "absolute" proof for or against it, which is true of any religion or belief system you can name or invent on the spot?
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Re: Joseph Smith's Personal Claim to Fame.

Post by _Darth J »

Cecil O. Samuelson wrote:
That is an amazing prophecy for any person speaking nearly two decades after the fact written by a third party about a claimed event that is said to have happened when he would have been a 17-year-old.


Fix't.

Increasingly, people recognize the name Joseph Smith and are able to relate him to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,


That's right, Cecil. The LDS Church is the only denomination in the world that claims Joseph Smith as its founding prophet.

See: solipsism
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