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The Urim and Thummim, according to Joseph Smith, Sr.
Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:05 pm
by _thews
From a thread over at Exmormonforums.com. The magical Urim and Thummim, according to Joseph Smith's father, were like two bright diamonds he used to "interpret unknown languages" (note languages is plural). Does anyone know (according to church history) when these supposed diamond glasses and gold breastplate showed up, or when they left?
http://www.exmormonforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=48965http://www.olivercowdery.com/smithhome/ ... 42Cas1.htm also an Uncle Dale site
CITY OF THE Mormons,
OR
THREE DAYS AT NAUVOO,
IN 1842.
My son received these precious gifts, he interpreted and published the holy record, and now the believers in that revelation are more than a hundred thousand in number.
I have myself seen and handled the golden plates; they are about eight inches long, and six wide; some of them are sealed together and are not to be opened, and some of them are loose. They are all connected by a ring which passes through a hole at the end of each plate, and are covered with letters beautifully engraved.
I have seen and felt also the Urim and Thummim. They resemble two large bright diamonds set in a bow like a pair of spectacles. My son puts these over his eyes
when he reads unknown languages, and they enable him to interpret them in English. I have likewise carried in my hands the sacred breastplate. It is composed of pure gold, and is made to fit the breast very exactly."
Re: The Urim and Thummim, according to Joseph Smith, Sr.
Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:33 pm
by _Yoda
Isn't there some sort of vault? The plates were "taken up", but I thought that Church still had possession of some of these other items. Maybe they are located in the same place as the scrolls that Schryver was able to look at?
Re: The Urim and Thummim, according to Joseph Smith, Sr.
Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:36 pm
by _DarkHelmet
thews wrote:
My son received these precious gifts, he interpreted and published the holy record, and now the believers in that revelation are more than a hundred thousand in number. I have myself seen and handled the golden plates; they are about eight inches long, and six wide; some of them are sealed together and are not to be opened, and some of them are loose. They are all connected by a ring which passes through a hole at the end of each plate, and are covered with letters beautifully engraved. I have seen and felt also the Urim and Thummim. They resemble two large bright diamonds set in a bow like a pair of spectacles. My son puts these over his eyes when he reads unknown languages, and they enable him to interpret them in English. I have likewise carried in my hands the sacred breastplate. It is composed of pure gold, and is made to fit the breast very exactly."
A solid gold breastplate? That's gotta be heavy. Like liz, I also wonder if any apologists have been given access to any of these sacred items. Anyone want to share their experience?
Re: The Urim and Thummim, according to Joseph Smith, Sr.
Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:51 pm
by _Willy Law
Didn't Sr. die in 1840?
Church membership was around 17,000 in 1840, a bit shy of his "hundred thousand " claim.
Re: The Urim and Thummim, according to Joseph Smith, Sr.
Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:50 pm
by _Drifting
DarkHelmet wrote:That's gotta be heavy. Like liz
I glanced quickly at your post and read this.
My immediate thought was "boy are you gonna cop for it" until I re-read it taking a little more note of punctuation...
Re: The Urim and Thummim, according to Joseph Smith, Sr.
Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:19 am
by _Runtu
My understanding is that, after the 116 pages were lost, the Urim and Thummim and plates were taken away from Joseph Smith, and when the plates were returned, the Urim and Thummim were not returned. The rest of the translation was done with Joseph's seer stone in a hat.
Re: The Urim and Thummim, according to Joseph Smith, Sr.
Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:39 am
by _Fence Sitter
Runtu wrote:My understanding is that, after the 116 pages were lost, the Urim and Thummim and plates were taken away from Joseph Smith, and when the plates were returned, the Urim and Thummim were not returned. The rest of the translation was done with Joseph's seer stone in a hat.
Breastplate and translators (later conflated with the Urim and Thummin) were found in the stone box along with the gold plates.
As Runtu points out these were not returned after the 116 pages were lost. LDS continue to label the seer stones that were used to translate as the Urim and Thummin at all stages of the translation even when different devices were used. I suppose if you put the seer stones in the hat and held it against your chest you could call it a breastplate.
Re: The Urim and Thummim, according to Joseph Smith, Sr.
Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:53 am
by _Quasimodo
Fence Sitter wrote:
As Runtu points out these were not returned after the 116 pages were lost.
The 116 pages. I wonder if those will ever surface? I'm surprised that Mark Hofmann didn't forge those. Think how much the Church fathers would have paid to keep those secret.
Anyone good at creating convincing early 19th century documents?