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Hi, I am trying to work out how I feel about the Book of Mormon translation. I had a post going at MDD but was banned and they locked the thread, http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/56409-quote-from-ldsorg-about-bom-translation/. I have been wondering what method of translation the church manuals teach. I went through a bunch of the lesson manuals on LDS.org and here is what I have found is taught to the primary aged kids(which are kids 18 months to 11 years old for those not familiar with the primary program). I may have missed some as I scanned through titles.


Nursery: Nothing
Primary 1(age 3 Sunbeams):Nothing
Primary 3(age 4-7):

Explain that the writing on the plates was in a language that Joseph could not read. Joseph received a special tool to help him translate the writing on the plates.
• Do any of you know what the Urim and Thummim are?

Explain that the Urim and Thummim are like special glasses through which Joseph could look to help him translate the ancient writing on the plates. With Heavenly Father’s help and by using the Urim and Thummim, Joseph was able to translate the words on the gold plates into words we could understand.

When the translation into English was completed, the book was printed. It was called the Book of Mormon.

Hold up a Book of Mormon. Point out that this book is what Joseph translated from the gold plates.

After he translated the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith returned the plates to Moroni.(Lesson 15, page 73)

Primary 4:

Who received the gold plates and translated them into the Book of Mormon? Lesson 44, pg 157)

What was the first major task the Lord asked Joseph Smith to do? (Translate the gold plates so we could have the Book of Mormon.)(lesson 47, pg 168)

Primary 5:

When the time had come for Joseph Smith to receive the gold plates, he borrowed a horse and wagon and went with his wife, Emma, to the Hill Cumorah, where the plates were buried. Joseph left Emma with the wagon at the bottom of the hill and climbed the hill alone to meet the angel Moroni. Moroni gave Joseph the gold plates. He also gave Joseph the Urim and Thummim and a breastplate, tools to help with the translation of the gold plates.(Lesson 5)

Why do you think people wanted to try to get the gold plates away from Joseph? (The gold plates were worth a lot of money; Satan did not want the plates to be translated.) Point out that although these people did not believe Joseph was a prophet, they did believe he had the gold plates.(Lesson 5)

Teach the children about the Urim and Thummim:

The Urim and Thummim is a sacred tool given by God to help prophets receive revelations from the Lord and translate languages (see Bible Dictionary, “Urim and Thummim”).

Joseph Smith described the Urim and Thummim as “two stones in silver bows … fastened to a breastplate” (Joseph Smith—H 1:35). The Prophet stated that when he was humble and prayerful, he could look into these stones and read the strange language on the gold plates. He could also look into these stones and get Heavenly Father’s word about certain things he ought to know and do.

Help the children find and discuss the following scriptures that refer to the Urim and Thummim:

Exodus 28:30
Mosiah 28:11, 13
Ether 3:23–24, Ether 4:4–5
Doctrine and Covenants 17:1 (Lesson 5)

The reformed Egyptian characters on the plates were very strange to him. He had to rely on the Spirit of the Lord, not his own knowledge, to help him translate the characters on the plates into English.(Lesson 6)

Once Joseph and Emma Smith were settled in Harmony, Pennsylvania, Joseph began to translate the gold plates. At first Joseph spent a lot of time becoming familiar with the plates and the language in which they were written. As he studied and prayed, the Urim and Thummim helped him understand the characters on the plates. Joseph learned that the process of translation requires faith, hard work, worthiness, patience, and obedience.(Lesson 6)

•What did Joseph have to do to be able to translate? (He needed to have faith and be prayerful, obedient, and patient.)(lesson 6)

When Oliver arrived, Joseph realized the Lord had sent Oliver to help with the translation of the Book of Mormon. Joseph and Oliver talked until late in the evening, and Oliver agreed to be Joseph’s scribe. Oliver wrote of his experiences as scribe: “These were days never to be forgotten—to sit under the sound of a voice dictated by the inspiration of heaven. … Day after day I continued, uninterrupted, to write from his mouth, as he translated with the Urim and Thummim … the history or record called ‘The Book of Mormon’” (footnote to Joseph Smith—History 1:71).(lesson 7)

1.Explain that when Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon, he said the words out loud, and his scribe wrote the words down. Sometimes Joseph and the scribe were separated by a divider and could not see each other.

Put a divider in the middle of a classroom table or the floor (for example, two children could hold a small blanket or sheet or a large piece of heavy paper). Have a child sit on one side of the divider and slowly read a short verse from the Book of Mormon while a child sitting on the other side of the divider writes down what is being read. Then have the scribe read what he or she wrote so the child reading the scripture can be sure it was written correctly. (You may want to have more than one scribe so all children who want to participate can do so.)(Lesson 7)

Review with the children the account of Joseph Smith translating the gold plates. Explain that at this time Joseph Smith was the only person who had actually seen the plates. (lesson 9)

From reading though the primary manuals I am quite frustrated. These lessons give the impression that Joseph used the urim and thummim to translate the whole Book of Mormon and that he could read/understand the characters on the plates. If I understand correctly the UT was taken from Joseph and not returned after the 116 pages were lost, is that right? Is there any evidence that Joseph could read(by read I mean read without a medium) the characters on the plates?

Is this a good forum to post this type of question on? I kind of wanted responses from the pro LDS side of things. Thanks.

Hi, mikuu, welcome to a virtually ban-free zone.

mikuu wrote:If I understand correctly the UT was taken from Joseph and not returned after the 116 pages were lost, is that right? Is there any evidence that Joseph could read(by read I mean read without a medium) the characters on the plates?

That's how the story goes. No UT after 116 pages were lost. But you see, when digging a well one day, JSJr found this small stone that fascinated him. So once god took away the UT (why? no explano) god would magically make the English text appear above that stone, if JSJr would put that stone in the crown of his upside down hat and then put his face down in that hat too. So the translating was all done for JSJr by god, and thus no room for errancy, god being perfect and all.

To answer the question, look to the history of the church. The use of "Urim and Thummim" wasn't used until 1833, or three years after the Book of Mormon was published. The church dates this at 1829, but in the footnotes admits it was actually 1833. The Nephite interpreters were taken back when the supposed evil doers "stole" the lost 116 pages, leaving Joseph Smith with his seer stones (the brown and white ones) which he placed in his hat. The church claims he used the seer stones "for convenience" to translate the plates, as if to imply there were many tools available to him. Brother Hyrum asked Joseph Smith to use the Urim and Thummim in 1843, which Joseph Smith claimed he didn't need, but it does put the Urim and Thummim in Joseph Smith's possession just before he died. Joseph Smith's seer stones are currently locked up in the LDS vault. To summarize, there never was a an Urim and Thummim... just the occult seer stones Joseph Smith used to see evil treasure guardians when he was a money digger.

thews wrote:To answer the question, look to the history of the church. The use of "Urim and Thummim" wasn't used until 1833, or three years after the Book of Mormon was published. The church dates this at 1829, but in the footnotes admits it was actually 1833.

Thanks thews. How do I that with LDS sources. When you say "history of the church" are you refering to a book?

The Nephite interpreters were taken back when the supposed evil doers "stole" the lost 116 pages, leaving Joseph Smith with his seer stones (the brown and white ones) which he placed in his hat.

Where can I find this?

The church claims he used the seer stones "for convenience" to translate the plates, as if to imply there were many tools available to him. Brother Hyrum asked Joseph Smith to use the Urim and Thummim in 1843, which Joseph Smith claimed he didn't need, but it does put the Urim and Thummim in Joseph Smith's possession just before he died. Joseph Smith's seer stones are currently locked up in the LDS vault. To summarize, there never was a an Urim and Thummim... just the occult seer stones Joseph Smith used to see evil treasure guardians when he was a money digger.

Is it possible to put this together with only pro LDS writings?

mikuu wrote:

thews wrote:The church claims he used the seer stones "for convenience" to translate the plates, as if to imply there were many tools available to him. Brother Hyrum asked Joseph Smith to use the Urim and Thummim in 1843, which Joseph Smith claimed he didn't need, but it does put the Urim and Thummim in Joseph Smith's possession just before he died. Joseph Smith's seer stones are currently locked up in the LDS vault. To summarize, there never was a an Urim and Thummim... just the occult seer stones Joseph Smith used to see evil treasure guardians when he was a money digger.

Is it possible to put this together with only pro LDS writings?

How much faith do you have?

sock puppet wrote:Hi, mikuu, welcome to a virtually ban-free zone.

mikuu wrote:If I understand correctly the UT was taken from Joseph and not returned after the 116 pages were lost, is that right? Is there any evidence that Joseph could read(by read I mean read without a medium) the characters on the plates?

That's how the story goes. No UT after 116 pages were lost. But you see, when digging a well one day, JSJr found this small stone that fascinated him. So once god took away the UT (why? no explano) god would magically make the English text appear above that stone, if JSJr would put that stone in the crown of his upside down hat and then put his face down in that hat too. So the translating was all done for JSJr by god, and thus no room for errancy, god being perfect and all.

Yes that is what I have thought but the MDD people have me wondering if I was way off in my thinking. The church is all over the place, from what I can tell, on this subject.

I need to put the story together from pro LDS sources so that I can put away the thought that I am being influenced by only the negative side of the story. If that makes sense.

mikuu wrote:If I understand correctly the UT was taken from Joseph and not returned after the 116 pages were lost, is that right? Is there any evidence that Joseph could read(by read I mean read without a medium) the characters on the plates?

sock puppet wrote:Hi, mikuu, welcome to a virtually ban-free zone.


That's how the story goes. No UT after 116 pages were lost. But you see, when digging a well one day, JSJr found this small stone that fascinated him. So once god took away the UT (why? no explano) god would magically make the English text appear above that stone, if JSJr would put that stone in the crown of his upside down hat and then put his face down in that hat too. So the translating was all done for JSJr by god, and thus no room for errancy, god being perfect and all.

mikuu wrote:
Yes that is what I have thought but the MDD people have me wondering if I was way off in my thinking. The church is all over the place, from what I can tell, on this subject.

I need to put the story together from pro LDS sources so that I can put away the thought that I am being influenced by only the negative side of the story. If that makes sense.

Do you consider the writings of Oliver Cowdery and Emma Smith, both of whom actually served as scribes in the process, to be pro LDS enough?

Look here for some further discussion you might find pertinent to your quest.

sock puppet wrote:

mikuu wrote:If I understand correctly the UT was taken from Joseph and not returned after the 116 pages were lost, is that right? Is there any evidence that Joseph could read(by read I mean read without a medium) the characters on the plates?

sock puppet wrote:Hi, mikuu, welcome to a virtually ban-free zone.


That's how the story goes. No UT after 116 pages were lost. But you see, when digging a well one day, JSJr found this small stone that fascinated him. So once god took away the UT (why? no explano) god would magically make the English text appear above that stone, if JSJr would put that stone in the crown of his upside down hat and then put his face down in that hat too. So the translating was all done for JSJr by god, and thus no room for errancy, god being perfect and all.

mikuu wrote:
Yes that is what I have thought but the MDD people have me wondering if I was way off in my thinking. The church is all over the place, from what I can tell, on this subject.

I need to put the story together from pro LDS sources so that I can put away the thought that I am being influenced by only the negative side of the story. If that makes sense.

Do you consider the writings of Oliver Cowdery and Emma Smith, both of whom actually served as scribes in the process, to be pro LDS enough?

Yes, I have read the quotes. I am unclear on the timing of the use of the UT, the stone in the hat, the interpreters, striaght out reading or inspiration. The church talks about all of those methods. Thews post has me intrigued.

sock puppet wrote:Look here for some further discussion you might find pertinent to your quest.

I read that, I think that buffalo may have started his post after reading my post on MDD.