Dialogue between an LDS and FLDS and Daheshist (fictional)
Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:14 am
A Bus from St. George Utah to Phoenix Arizona pulls into Colorado City to get some repairs done. On the bus are two men: one who is LDS and another who is a former LDS but now a Daheshist. The LDS man gets into a conversation with the mechanic working on the bus, who is a member of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (i.e. a follower of Warren Jeffs...who is now serving a life sentence in a prison in Texas for having sex with under-aged girls and other crimes).
LDS: Sir, excuse me. Don't mean to interrupt your fixing our bus. But, are you FLDS?
FLDS: That's right.
LDS: Gee, are you really going to follow the commandments of Warren Jeffs and not have sex with any of your wives until God causes his prison walls to fall down and he gets back to Colorado City?
FLDS: Absolutely! He's a Prophet of God! The closest man to God on Earth! It's gonna be tough, but I'm going to obey the Living Prophet.
LDS You really need to open your eyes. Jeffs had sex with young girls, even according to some men today, he had sex with young boys too. His prophecies all failed.
FLDS: How DARE YOU talk about the Living Prophet like that! You are going to damned to Hell for sure! Warren Jeffs, our dear Prophet, NEVER had sex with men or boys! Also, all those young girls were his rightful wives. They are honored to be among his wives! Oh my God! You are going to Hell for such blasphemy! You're blasphemes the Lord's Anointed!
LDS: Well, I don't think so. I'm not saying that the men who claim Jeffs had sex with them are all truthful. I'm saying that's what they have claimed. I follow a living Prophet named Thomas Monson.
FLDS: Really, where are his prophecies? May I read them?
LDS: Well, he's NOT REALLY that kind of Prophet. I mean, he speaks for the Lord, but he doesn't prophesy.
FLDS: So, he's received Thus Saith the Lord revelations?
LDS: Well, no, he hasn't. At least...I've never heard of any. But, he's God's One and Only Prophet on Earth today. He is the closest man to God on Earth.
FLDS: Really, well, I'm afraid you are deceived my friend! You see, Warren Jeffs is God's One and Only Prophet and he has actually made prophecies!
LDS: Did his prophecies come to pass?
FLDS: Well, no! But...that doesn't mean anything. I mean, all prophecies are conditional, and if the conditions of the prophecy are not met, then, that's ok, the prophecy does not NEED to come to pass! In other words, all of Warren Jeffs prophecies are true, they just didn't happen because of us, his followers, didn't do the things we were supposed to do. Not his fault. It was OUR fault that his prophecies were not fulfilled. But, they were still true prophecies.
LDS But doesn't it say in Deuteronomy chapter 18, verses 18 through 21, that if a Prophet prophesies a thing, and the thing does not come to pass, you are not to be afraid of him, for I, the Lord, have not spoken to him?
FLDS: Yeah, so?
LDS: Well, it says here that if a prophecy DOES NOT COME TO PASS it is false! Period! No exceptions. No exceptions. No excuses.
FLDS I see. Hmmmmmm. Golly. I've never thought about that before. That might really hurt my faith, if I didn't KNOW that Warren Jeffs was truly a Prophet of God.
LDS: How do you KNOW that? How do you KNOW that he is a true prophet when his prophecies have FAILED over and over and over again?
FLDS: I asked God in sincere prayer "Is Warren Jeffs your one and only Prophet in the entire Earth?" and God gave me a burning in my bosom, a good feeling, a spiritual confirmation that he was. So, is God lying to me?
LDS: I asked God in sincere prayer "Is Thomas Monson your one and only Prophet in the entire Earth?" and God gave ME a burning in my bosom, a good feeling a spiritual confirmation that he was. So, is God lying to ME?
Daheshist: Hi! How are you guys doing? I've overheard your conversation. May I interject something? A Prophet cannot have prophecies that failed, just like LDS said. But, Joseph Smith gave many prophecies that failed. Such as, a Temple will be build on the temple lot in Jackson County Missouri before the generation living in 1832 were all dead. Also, he said that the Son of Man would come in the clouds and show his face in 1891, and this prophecy also failed.
LDS: Ah, but that was a "conditional" prophecy, and the conditions were not met! The prophecy was that that "if" Joseph Smith lived until he was 85, then the Lord would come. But, he didn't live that long, so the Lord delayed his coming.
Daheshist: I beg to differ. The prophecy was not that "if Joseph Smith lived the Lord would come, the prophecy was that the Son of Man would come in 1891, and "if" Joseph Smith lived until then he (Joseph) would see His face.
LDS: Well, we'll have to disagree on that. But what about the the 1832 prophecy of the Civil War?
Daheshist: Joseph Smith gave that prophecy after reading a newspaper article on South Carolina seceding from the Union in 1832, which it then tried to do. The author of the article, who was not Mormon, said that if South Carolina seceded, then so would the other Southern states, and then there would be a war, and the South would have to call upon Great Britain to defend itself. Joseph's prophecy simply followed what the newspaper editor said; based upon a logical sequence of what would happen if South Carolina seceded. Joseph Smith simply followed what the newspaper article said, which was based upon a logical consequence of what would happen if South Carolina did what it threatened to do (which it did later in 1860). The 1832 prophecy said that war would be poured out upon all nations, beginning with the rebellion of South Carolina. That prophecy doesn't work without applying a LOT of mental gymnastics.
FLDS: What about Joseph Smith's "Rocky Mountain Prophecy" that the Saints would become a mighty people in the midst of the Rocky Mountains?
Daheshist: Never happened. That prophecy was written into Joseph Smith's journal, in the margins, in a hand not Joseph's nor his scribe, in 1866, long after Joseph Smith was dead.
LDS Why in the WORLD would they do that?
Daheshist: Because, Brigham Young publicly stated, in General Conference, that he was not a Prophet, and that he was not the rightful successor of Joseph Smith. He said that twice. Too many people in Utah at that time remembered that Joseph Smith had ordained his son, Joseph Smith III, to become his successor. Too many people in early Utah knew that. Brigham Young sent apostles to Joseph Smith III to try to get him to join the Utah Church, but Joseph Smith III refused and joined with another group of anti-polygamist Mormons, and they formed the Reorganized Church. After that happened, Brigham Young taught that David Smith was the rightful head of the LDS Church, but then David Smith joined the RLDS Church instead. Then Brigham Young ordered that the "Rocky Mountain Prophecy" be written into the margins of Joseph Smith's Nauvoo Journal, and also to write in "Bro Brigham will one day lead this Church". That statement was not in the original, and if you look at photographic reproductions of the pages in question, from the Nauvoo journal of Joseph Smith, you can easily see that the Rocky Mountain Prophecy and Joseph's comments that "Bro Brigham will one day lead this Church" were written in the margins, in a different hand, and historians say these additions were added in 1866, after David Smith had joined the RLDS Church. Brigham Young literally "wrote himself in" as Joseph Smith's successor, but NOT until David Smith finally snubbed him.
LDS: Oh, I don't believe you! Where did you see photocopies of Joseph's journals?
Daheshist: They were first published by Modern Microfilm, now Utah Lighthouse Ministry, anti-Mormons. But, ask any Mormon historian, and he'll tell you the same. The Rocky Mountain Prophecy, and Joseph's "Bro Brigham" comment never existed in Joseph Smith's original Nauvoo journals. They were not written in until 22 years after he died.
LDS: Anti-Mormons are liars. You can't trust anything they say.
Daheshist: I would disagree. Some anti-Mormons lie a lot. Some a little. Some not at all. I've studied anti-Mormon writings extensively for thirty years. Even Ed Decker, who lied a LOT, even MOST of what he said and wrote was true.
FLDS: Then you must know about the 1886 Revelation, that Jesus and Joseph Smith appeared to John Taylor and told him to continue the practice of plural marriage?
LDS: What? I've NEVER heard of that! The Brethren would have told us about that!
Daheshist: Yes, I've heard of it. A Revelation was found in John Taylor's handwriting, but he never offered it to the Church during his life time.
LDS: Why wasn't I ever told about this?
Daheshist: The Brethren don't tell you things that might confuse you, or cause you to ask questions. They don't want people who question them. They want people who OBEY them, without question.
FLDS: Yep! You cannot be more right! Mormon Church leaders are liars, and blind guides.
Daheshist: They are, but FLDS leaders are FAR FAR worse!
FLDS: What? How DARE you say that!!! You're going to burn in Hell forever because you said that!!!
Daheshist: I'll take my chances.
LDS: Sorry friend, but the Brethren would never lie to me, or any of us. The Brethren teach we should be absolutely honest in all our dealings with our fellow men.
Daheshist: Yes, they do. But, they don't follow their own counsel! The Brethren believe they have the divine authority to "lie" for the "good of the Church" anytime they think it for YOU own "good". And they do lie, and they do hide things, and they do cover-up things, and they do re-write history, and other things, because they are trying to protect YOUR weak faith. They do all these things to help YOU....but in reality, they do these things so they can more easily CONTROL rank-and-file Mormons. To keep you docile, unquestioning, and absolutely obedient to THEM. As Jesus said: "Do what they say, but NOT what they do".
LDS Well, I really fell sorry for you Daheshist. I really don't know were you get your information, but you'll believing lies.
Daheshist: I wish I were, but what I've told you is the absolute truth, NOT based upon what others have told me, but based upon evidence, facts, like in a court case. Not rumor. Not lies. Pure truth.
LDS: But I KNOW the Church is true and that Thomas Monson is a true Prophet of God. God Himself told me so! Are you calling God a liar?
Daheshist: Did God come down from heaven and tell you this?
LDS: No. He didn't have to do that. He told me by the Spirit. I prayed about it, and YES...I got a good feeling, a burning in my bosom, that these things are true. The Brethren are prophets, seers, revelators.
Daheshist: But FLDS got the SAME answer about Warren Jeffs.
LDS: Yes (sigh), poor self-deluded. FLDS. You see Daheshist, although FLDS got a good feeling, a burning in the bosom, his feelings came from Satan, but my feelings came from God.
FLDS: No way LDS! MY burning in the bosom came from God, and YOUR burning in the bosom came from Satan!
LDS: Sorry FLDS...its the other way around!
FLDS: No, its not.
LDS: Yes, it is.
FLDS NO, it's not.
LDS: Yes, it is....
Daheshist. Come on now! This back and forth is getting nowhere. I too used to decide things on burning in the bosom or "heart feelings" but I found these were unreliable. I remember having a Mormon roommate who had sex with many young Mormon girls in my Young Adult Ward. Many of them. All of these girls had "feelings" that my roommate was in love with them and wanted to marry them. They considered these "feelings" as coming from God. But....they weren't. My roommate did not want to marry any of them. He didn't love or respect any of them. He wanted to use each for sex, then dump them. He compared them to "used toilet paper". The Bible says that the heart is deceitful above all things, meaning the "feeling of the heart" cannot be trusted, because "feelings" are not to be trusted because they are often not from God.
LDS: First of all, I don't believe you about the Mormon girls. Mormon women and girls would never have sex before marriage. It's not in their nature to do anything immoral. That would never happen.
Daheshist: But it did. Over and over again. I was there.
LDS: Then there is your denial of the burning in the bosom! what is the meaning of the two disciples on the way to Emmaeus, when Jesus talked with them, and after Jesus disappeared they said, "Did not our hearts burn within us as he talked with us along the way?" Isn't this evidence that a burning in the bosom is from God?
Daheshist. No! The term "burning in the bosom" was a Jewish euphemism used in Jesus' day. It did NOT mean that one got a literal "burning in the bosom". It meant the same as a "gut feeling" today. If I say "I have a gut feeling that man is up to no good" it does NOT mean you get a feeling in your gut! It means that you "sense" something. Basically, it means intuition, or the "third eye". The sixth sense in other words. But, it has absolutely no reference to "desire". Mormons think the Church is true and that Thomas Monson is a true Prophet because of "desire"; they WANT to believe these things are true, so they believe it. FLDS people WANT to believe that Warren Jeffs is a true Prophet, and that they are the Elect of God down there in Colorado City, so...they do. This is called "Subjective Truth". In other words, "TRUTH" is subject to our wants and desires. But...TRUTH IS NOT LIKE THAT! Truth is "objective"; meaning it is beyond our wants, desires, likes, and dislikes. Truth is totally independent of "us". Truth is what "is"--which is not necessarily what we "want" it to be. Those young girls I told you about, who were involved with my roommate, all of them had a tremendous DESIRE that my roommate truly loved them, and truly wanted to marry them, so they BELIEVED HE DID with all their HEARTS, but...the truth was...just the opposite. Desire (heart) feelings cannot be trusted, because they are often wrong.
LDS: So, Daheshist, what do YOU believe?
Daheshist: I believe in Dr. Dahesh, the miracle-working Prophet of Lebanon. He healed the sick. Raised the dead. Caused the blind to see and the deaf to hear. He performed thousands of supernatural miracles, almost one per day, for many decades. He was the most prolific worker of supernatural miracles of all time. I asked him to appear to me, like Jesus appeared to Thomas, and he did. It was in daylight. I was not ill. I do not drink alcohol. I have never even tried an illegal drug. I have no head injuries. I have had no seizures of any kind. He appeared to me, and sat on the corner of my bed, in the day time, when I was wide awake. He uttered over 200 prophecies, and each one came to pass in minute detail within the time period he said it would. Not one of them failed to come to pass. He was Jesus in a previous incarnation.
LDS: Hahahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!...I'm sorry...I'm sorry...you're....you're...I'm sorry!
FLDS: Wow Daheshist! You really ought to get professional help.
Daheshist: I've told you the truth.
LDS: (Wiping his eyes). Look, Daheshist, you may be sincere, but, c'mon, don't you know that Satan can appear as an angel of light?
Daheshist: Well, if Dahesh is Satan, then I guess I'll be a Satanist, because Dahesh's miracles are real, and his prophecies all came to pass.
FLDS: But my friend, don't you KNOW that Satan can also work miracles?
Daheshist: I don't know that. Jesus said, "All power is given unto me in heaven and earth". When Jesus worked miracles, the scribes and Pharisees attributed them to Satan. So, I'm not surprised that this same thing is happening again.
LDS: Look, it doesn't matter if all of Dahesh's prophecies came to pass exactly as they were given. IT DOES NOT MATTER if Dahesh performed 10,000 supernatural miracles! Does not make ANY difference at all! The Devil can do all of that.
Daheshist: I disagree. After Jesus was resurrected He said, "All power is given to me whether on heaven or on Earth". That doesn't refer to military power, or political power. It refers to the ONLY KIND OF POWER LEFT, which is supernatural power. He has 100% of supernatural power, and Dahesh had this, so Dahesh must be Jesus.
FLDS Did not Jesus say, "Many shall come after me saying, I am Christ, and deceive many."?
Daheshist. Yes, and many did, and many have, and all of them said at one time or another "I am Christ". Dr. Dahesh never said that.
LDS: But that doesn't matter Daheshist! Anyone who claims to be Christ, but Christ, is a false Christ. Would you agree?
Daheshist: I agree!
FLDS: Ok then! Now, are you ready to give up this false prophet named Dahesh?
Daheshist: NO.
LDS: But Daheshist, I thought you AGREED that anyone claiming to be Christ, but who is not Christ, is a false Christ?
Daheshist: I did. If Dahesh is not Christ, if He was not the reincarnation of Jesus, then I would give Him up, but the point is...HE IS Jesus!
LDS: How do you KNOW that? Have you sincerely asked God in prayer? Have you received a burning in your bosom?
Daheshist: I did more than that. I asked Dahesh to visit me, as Jesus visited Thomas, and HE DID!
FLDS: Oh, you are a blasphemer Dahesh! That never happened. You are lying! You must repent, and if you become a follower of Warren Jeffs, and give you all your money, and you're daughters, and your wife if he asked for her, if you unquestionably obeyed and followed God's only earthly Prophet, he may forgive you!
Daheshist: I am NOT lying to you! As God is my Witness, Dahesh visited me in 2005, in my room, in broad daylight, and sat on the corner of my bed, when I was wide awake, had been awake for hours, was not tired, was not on any medications, no head injuries....
LDS: Yes, we heard you the first time! But, c'mon Daheshist. C'mon! Even if this DID happen, and it wasn't a dream or hallucination, don't you THINK that the Devil could appear to you just to deceive you?
Daheshist: That's what they said about Jesus when He performed miracles...it was the Devil doing it. But, again, let me tell you again, Jesus said he was given "all power in heaven and on earth". Not military power. Not political power. The only power left is supernatural power.
LDS: No! By all power means, Jesus was given all the priesthoods. That's all. I have the priesthoods, and I have the same power Jesus was given.
Daheshist: Can you raise the dead, heal the sick, cause the blind to see, the lame to walk, the deaf to hear, can you.....
LDS: Look, I see where you are going with this. Look, sure, if God wills it, I can do these things with my priesthood. Once, when my daughter was sick, I gave her a priesthood blessing. And, you know what? She got better in about a day!
Daheshist: I mean MAJOR miracles? Like, raising the dead...
LDS: C'mon! I mean. Sure, if God wanted that to happen, anyone with the priesthood who is worthy could do that.
Daheshist: Have you seen it happen with Mormon priesthood holders, or heard of that happening with Mormon priesthood holders, even the Brethren? How many people has Thomas Monson raised from the dead?
LDS: No, I haven't seen or heard of any major miracles by other Mormons men or the
Brethren, but that doesn't mean it can't or doesn't happen!
Daheshist: Well, many hundreds have testified that they saw Dahesh do such miracles, and He did them almost every day of His life.
FLDS: With Satan's power!!!
Daheshist: Again, they said that about Jesus, that He could perform miracles, but with Satan's power. But, again, I don't believe Satan has any power, because Jesus has it all.
LDS: Doesn't it say somewhere in Revelations that some false prophet will arise and show great signs and wonders, and bring fire down from heaven?
Daheshist: That's a reference to the Beast in Revelations. Rome was a city built upon Seven Hills. The Beast of Revelations had Seven Heads, with 10 crowns: meaning 10 ceasars ruled Rome up until the Apocalyse was written. The Beast refers to Rome. And "fire from heaven" does not refer to any supernatural ability the Beast has. It refers to the Roman catapults; large wooden machines the Romans used to rain flaming fire-balls, made of tar and rope, upon their enemies and upon the cities of their enemies. This is the meaning in Revelations that the Beast could cause fire to descend from the sky. In the Greek, it says "oorawnoos" (sky); and not "heaven". The Beast refers to the Romans, who brought "fire" down from the sky upon their enemies, with catapults. Nothing supernatural about that.
LDS: Gee Daheshist. I feel sorry for you! You have been DECEIVED by this false prophet Dahesh. I KNOW that Thomas Monson is a true prophet of God, because God has told me so. I say this in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.
FLDS: You're right LDS. Daheshist has been deceived by Satan himself. I testify to you Daheshist, that Warren Jeffs is a true Prophet of God, because God has told me so. I say this in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.
Daheshist: My friends, what else can I say? Dr. Dahesh appeared to me in my room. What further PROOF do I need that He was a Prophet of God? His thousands of supernatural miracles. His prophecies all coming true. I can testify to both of YOU, then Dr. Dahesh was a true Prophet, because He appeared to me in my room, and He could perform supernatural miracles, and Thomas Monson cannot, and Warren Jeffs cannot, and His prophecies all came to pass, and Thomas Monson has given no prophecies, and the prophecies of Warren Jeffs have all failed...one after another...and I KNOW that Doctor Dahesh is a true Prophet of God not from any heart-feeling, but because of His miracles, and His prophecies, and because HE CAME TO MY ROOM in 2005, and I say this in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.
FLDS: Well, I need to get back to fixing this bus. After that, I need to wire more money to my beloved Prophet Jeffs in prison. He's prophesied he'll soon get out. The walls of the prison will fall down, miraculously, and he'll walk out of it. What will you say THEN, Daheshist?
Daheshist: I promise you, FLDS, if the walls of the prison he is in fall down, for any reason other than by explosives, in other words, if there is an earthquake, or a tornado, or if the walls simply "fall" without the aid of human hands, I will become a follower of Warren Jeffs. I PROMISE you that!
FLDS: Wonderful! That's gonna happen soon! How about you LDS?
LDS: I don't believe that will ever happen. Even if it did, I STILL wouldn't become a follower of Warren Jeffs, because God has told me that Thomas Monson is his prophet. And God wouldn't lie now would he?
FLDS: Nope! God would never lie, and that's why I know Warren Jeffs is God's one and only prophet!
Daheshist: Well friends. Let us hope that God will deliver us all to the truth. Amen!
FLDS: Amen!
LDS: Amen!
FLDS finishes fixing the bus. LDS and Daheshist get back on, and bus pulls out of Colorado City back on the road toward Phoenix.
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