BrianH, Right Here, buddy (in which Jersey Girl tells it like it is)
Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:17 am
BrianH,
On another thread, wherein you published a list of 7 LDS doctrines and asked (demanded) that LDS show you evidence that Jesus Christ ever taught such things, you engaged my response as follows:
No, BrianH, read my comment again. Unfortunately, and try as you might, you cannot twist my words into a pretzel in order to make them say what you wish they said.
Not where I can see it.
What I stated to you, was not that your so-called challenge makes no sense to Mormons, I clearly stated that it makes no sense in terms of LDS doctrine and theology.
You are essentially asking LDS to provide evidence of those "plain and precious truths" that were LOST. Lost, Brian, and restored via revelation.
You, who claim to have been "doing this for 30 years", come in here with guns blazing, hopping up and down, calling Mormons "Mormoids", "Cowards", while at the same time demanding that people provide evidence of a negative. That is to say, you are asking them to prove that which, according to their beliefs, doesn't exist because it was...
lost.
LDS believe they have received these doctrines over the years via revelation, that God spoke to their Prophet and the Prophet, in turn, passed it on to the people.
That's why your so-called challenge doesn't make any sort of logical sense at all, to anyone.
Now, in my own thinking, I would tell you that these things weren't taught by Jesus at all. For this is what I honestly think and believe.
You don't see me hopping up and down, pounding the keyboard and demanding that LDS pony up proof of these things for if I were to do that, it would prove that I:
1. Didn't know jack about burden of proof.
2. Am a flaming hypocrite to attempt to nail LDS to the wall because...
I have no empirical evidence at all that Jesus taught what is attributed to him in the New Testament, and not only that, I cannot provide proof that Jesus even existed.
And neither can you.
I like the approach that the Apostle Paul took as presented in the Bible, in 1 Corinthians. He essentially made himself "every man", he found a way to identify with those to whom he was preaching (Jew, Gentile, weak, etc.) so that he could relate to them and therefore make himself approachable.
When you come in here and attempt to strong arm the discussion, avoiding sharing your own beliefs while at the same time demanding that LDS engage your challenges and accusations, your ability to communicate is blocked by your own arrogance and stubbornness.
Until and unless you realize that when it comes to matters of faith and belief, you are in the same exact boat that LDS are (though, personally, I think such matters as polygamy and Book of Abraham are pretty obvious errors) who in the world is going to take you seriously?
I see nowhere in your posts, evidence that you "speak LDS", there are some issues where even *I* could put up a good argument to support LDS beliefs when it comes to godhood, etc. If you would like to create a thread to challenge me on that, I am totally up for it. Only I would demand that you allow your own beliefs to be examined in much the same way at the same time.
Now, you and I might say that we believe that Jesus Christ entered human history, lived a human life, taught on this earth, was crucified, resurrected, transcended into Heaven and lives today.
In John 20:29, after Thomas required proof of these things, Jesus held out his hands and allowed Thomas to see the proof that he required, and said this:
You and I, have no other proof that these things took place other than what is stated in scripture. We take it on faith that it happened, we believe it and the words of Jesus tell us we are blessed on account of our willingness to believe.
When you ask LDS to provide proof of things that according to their belief, were lost or destroyed, and were received by revelation, you are asking them to prove something that they believe was given to them by revelation in much the same way that you and I came by our own belief via personal revelation.
Who are you to disparage them for not providing proof of what they base their faith on when you (and I) cannot provide proof for what we base our own faith on?
You would do better, to get to know the posters on this board, learn what you have in common with them (because you likely have much in common with them), allow yourself to learn from them, share and communicate ideas, and if you truly believe that their faith is based on that which is untrue, how about you leave that in God's hands and let patience have her perfect work, because your approach Brian, is nothing short of an obstacle to communication and understanding.
Perhaps after 30 years, you still have something to learn.
Jersey Girl
(I think I am done now, don't count on it)
On another thread, wherein you published a list of 7 LDS doctrines and asked (demanded) that LDS show you evidence that Jesus Christ ever taught such things, you engaged my response as follows:
BrianH wrote:BH>>My "interpretation" of the Bible is not the issue here. And even if it was, I have not even represented it such that you could even pretend to make such a judgment.
The issue here, in this discussion, is my challenge that the Mormons show us evidence that will support their practice of attributing the seven distinctively LDS doctrines I listed in the OP to Jesus Christ. So far the closest anyone has come is a copy-paste list of isolated, context-free quotes from the 3rd - 4th century church. But in each case the citations were deceptively offered.
CG>Your so-called challenge doesn't make one lick of sense in terms of LDS doctrine and theology.
Exactly!
First of all it IS a real, actual challenge, and I totally agree that such a challenge makes "no sense" to Mormons. In fact, that is my ultimate point!
Mormons are mentally conditioned to think of challenges to the claims of their organization as making no sense at all. But to thinking people, it is entirely reasonable to ask for some reasons why we should believe a self-proclaimed "prophet", especially when he makes claims that are prima-facia absurd. When a "prophet" claims, for example, to have received "revelations from God" about a supposedly vast civilization of Egyptian-writing, Jewish American Indians supposedly baptizing each other into the "Christian" "Church" hundreds of years before Christ himself was even born, any even minimally cogent person has a right to ask WHY he is supposed to believe such an absurdity.
But to Mormons, such a question makes no sense.
Exactly my ultimate point.
Thanks CG!!
-BH
.
No, BrianH, read my comment again. Unfortunately, and try as you might, you cannot twist my words into a pretzel in order to make them say what you wish they said.
Not where I can see it.
What I stated to you, was not that your so-called challenge makes no sense to Mormons, I clearly stated that it makes no sense in terms of LDS doctrine and theology.
You are essentially asking LDS to provide evidence of those "plain and precious truths" that were LOST. Lost, Brian, and restored via revelation.
You, who claim to have been "doing this for 30 years", come in here with guns blazing, hopping up and down, calling Mormons "Mormoids", "Cowards", while at the same time demanding that people provide evidence of a negative. That is to say, you are asking them to prove that which, according to their beliefs, doesn't exist because it was...
lost.
LDS believe they have received these doctrines over the years via revelation, that God spoke to their Prophet and the Prophet, in turn, passed it on to the people.
That's why your so-called challenge doesn't make any sort of logical sense at all, to anyone.
Now, in my own thinking, I would tell you that these things weren't taught by Jesus at all. For this is what I honestly think and believe.
You don't see me hopping up and down, pounding the keyboard and demanding that LDS pony up proof of these things for if I were to do that, it would prove that I:
1. Didn't know jack about burden of proof.
2. Am a flaming hypocrite to attempt to nail LDS to the wall because...
I have no empirical evidence at all that Jesus taught what is attributed to him in the New Testament, and not only that, I cannot provide proof that Jesus even existed.
And neither can you.
I like the approach that the Apostle Paul took as presented in the Bible, in 1 Corinthians. He essentially made himself "every man", he found a way to identify with those to whom he was preaching (Jew, Gentile, weak, etc.) so that he could relate to them and therefore make himself approachable.
When you come in here and attempt to strong arm the discussion, avoiding sharing your own beliefs while at the same time demanding that LDS engage your challenges and accusations, your ability to communicate is blocked by your own arrogance and stubbornness.
Until and unless you realize that when it comes to matters of faith and belief, you are in the same exact boat that LDS are (though, personally, I think such matters as polygamy and Book of Abraham are pretty obvious errors) who in the world is going to take you seriously?
I see nowhere in your posts, evidence that you "speak LDS", there are some issues where even *I* could put up a good argument to support LDS beliefs when it comes to godhood, etc. If you would like to create a thread to challenge me on that, I am totally up for it. Only I would demand that you allow your own beliefs to be examined in much the same way at the same time.
Now, you and I might say that we believe that Jesus Christ entered human history, lived a human life, taught on this earth, was crucified, resurrected, transcended into Heaven and lives today.
In John 20:29, after Thomas required proof of these things, Jesus held out his hands and allowed Thomas to see the proof that he required, and said this:
29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
You and I, have no other proof that these things took place other than what is stated in scripture. We take it on faith that it happened, we believe it and the words of Jesus tell us we are blessed on account of our willingness to believe.
When you ask LDS to provide proof of things that according to their belief, were lost or destroyed, and were received by revelation, you are asking them to prove something that they believe was given to them by revelation in much the same way that you and I came by our own belief via personal revelation.
Who are you to disparage them for not providing proof of what they base their faith on when you (and I) cannot provide proof for what we base our own faith on?
You would do better, to get to know the posters on this board, learn what you have in common with them (because you likely have much in common with them), allow yourself to learn from them, share and communicate ideas, and if you truly believe that their faith is based on that which is untrue, how about you leave that in God's hands and let patience have her perfect work, because your approach Brian, is nothing short of an obstacle to communication and understanding.
Perhaps after 30 years, you still have something to learn.
Jersey Girl
(I think I am done now, don't count on it)