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catch me up please

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:16 am
by _Tarski
In his article on evidence for the Book of Abraham Dan Peterson writes:
Ancient texts indicate that the idolatrous gods of Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, and Korash, described in the book of Abraham (Abr. 1:6, 13, 17; facsimile 1, figs. 5–8), truly were worshipped in the ancient world, despite the fact that the Bible makes no mention of them..

Is this true?
Yes?
No?
What is the short version of the story?.


OK, I admit I didn't read all the relevant posts when/if this came up before but please don't send me to some long thread to answer this.
Just the bottom line please.

Dan's article :
http://LDS.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnex ... Nav=1//url

Re: catch me up please

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:24 am
by _The Dude
The short version is:

Sifting through an ever-growing catalog of ancient trivia reveals subtle parallels...
How could Joseph have known?
He must be a prophet!

Pure apologetic poetry.

Re: catch me up please

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:29 am
by _Runtu
Here's what the "Book of Abraham Project" (boap.org) says about this:

We observe here that the spellings given by Joseph Smith in the text are certainly phonetic. This is the case with the words designated by Joseph Smith as Hebrew as in the explanation given for figure 12 in Facsimile No. 1 and the explanation of figure 4 of Facsimile No. 2 which follow the pronunciations of his Hebrew study manual written by Seixas (see note 43). For some explanation of the meanings of these figures, known as
the sons of Horus (Horus: from the Greek, Horos, son of brother-sister, husband-wife, Osiris-Isis, conceived during a magical moment as Isis embalms Osiris) - consider the table above. [Compare ANP, 132; Gee, 1991.]

The god Elkenah may be the Hittite-Canaanite deity Elkunirsa , "El, creator of the earth" (name variants close to this name are found in BAms-1/2/3 - see note at (1:6) - the same name as the biblical Elkanah - see for example 1Chron. 6) [John Day, ABD 1:831f; ANP, 132.]; Libnah a Hebrew word meaning white, may possibly mean white land, perhaps referring to the Libyans. Another possible source for the name may be the Libnah
identified as a Canaanite city [captured by Joshua (Josh. 10:29-39); the name is used once in The Story of Abraham for the moon ‘white one’ representing a false god in the text, 23 thereafter, astronomical references to the moon are ‘olea’ the Book of Abraham word for moon, TELA, 175.]. The name amackrah, assuming that the name is a phonetic equivalent, Mah-mack-rah might have the Egyptian meaning "who is mighty like Re." The name Korash makes an interesting reference to the father of the king who tried to put Abraham to death. There are other possible meanings. [ANP, 137; compare Gee and
Ricks, 75.] The difficulty of tracing the names of various deities of the region is illustrated by Stieglitz. [Stieglitz, 1990.]

The recent discovery of previously unknown languages in the region of Abraham's experiences provide an interesting challenge in relating the unusual names found in the Book of Abraham to these new sources. Lundquist reasons that each of the names, Elkenah, Libnah, Mamackrah and Korash appear in deity lists near the time of Abraham. [Stieglitz; Lundquist , 1985, 232; Nibley, 1965; Gee and Ricks, 75.]

Re: catch me up please

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:33 am
by _Runtu
And, for good measure:

Rebuttal to Daniel Peterson's claims regarding the four gods in Facsimile 1

Daniel Peterson in his article News from Antiquity makes the following bold statement in an effort to show how Joseph was somehow correct when he identified the 4 gods as real Sumerian gods even though he got the names wrong and that they were not Egyptian gods:
Ancient texts indicate that the idolatrous gods of Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, and Korash, described in the book of Abraham (Abr. 1:6, 13, 17; facsimile 1, figs. 5–8), truly were worshipped in the ancient world, despite the fact that the Bible makes no mention of them. 5

Peterson does not show the proof in the article. He merely lists a footnote. The footnote (#5) only states “See Lundquist, “Was Abraham at Ebla?” p. 232; Tvedtnes and Christensen, Ur of the Chaldeans, pp. 32–33.”

This is totally unacceptable. If you are going to make bold claims that challenge established views, then you can't simply write "See this book and that book" in the footnotes and expect to be taken seriously, especially when the sources you cite are not widely available. The reason he did this is clear.

This is an analysis from Dialogue, A Journal of Mormon Thought on Peterson's claim:

From Dialogue, A Journal of Mormon Thought by Stephen E. Thompson "Egyptology and the Book of Abraham" footnote 67. [Archived backup of article here]



67. John Lundquist has attempted to equate the names which Joseph Smith gave to the deities represented in Figures 5-8 of Facsimile 1 with names for Sumerian deities found in a list of names of such gods published by A. Deimel. He suggests that Elkenah corresponds to Sumerian Il-gi-na (the raised d, for dingir, indicating a divinity, has been omitted from this and the following names), Libnah to La-ban, Mahmackrah to Ma-mi-hi-rat, and Korash to Kurra- su-ur-ur ("Was Abraham at Ebla?" 232-33).

There are problems with the methodology used to arrive at these equations. First, Demeil's readings of these names cannot always be trusted. For example, the name which Deimel read as Ma-mi-hi-rat is actually to be read ma-mi-sar-ra-at (see A. Deimel, Pantheon Babylonicum [Rome: Pontifical Biblical Institute, 1914], #2042, and E. Sollberger, Ur Excavation Texts 8, Royal Inscriptions, pt. 2 [London: British Museum, 1965], 19, #86). Ma-mi-sar-ra-at is actually not a god's name, but the name of a canal which connected the Tigris and Euphrates
rivers with the sea (see D. O. Edzard, "Mami-sarrat," in Reallexikon der Assyriologie und vorderasiatischen Archaologie, ed. D. O. Edzard et al. [New York: Walter de Gruyter, 1988), 7:329, and Sollberger, 19).

The divine element in this name is Mami, a Sumerian mother-goddess (see J. J. M. Roberts, The Earliest Semitic Pantheon: A Study of the Semitic Deities Attested in Mesopotamia before UR III [Baltimore: Johns Hopkins University Press, 1972], 43-44). The name translates as "Mammi is queen." There is no deity Ma-mi-hi-rat. This illustrates one of the problems which can arise when one randomly compares names in a list of deities with those found in the Book of Abraham. When attempting to correlate a particular Near Eastern god with one mentioned in the Book of Abraham, four conditions must be met: (1) the correspondences between the names have to be reasonably explained on phonological grounds (in my opinion, Lundquist's Ma-mi-hi-rat and Kur-ra-su-ur-ur fail this test); (2) whether a cult of the god existed must be determined; (3) the date and location of the practice of this cult need to be determined and then compared with the likely dates and locations for Abraham; and (4) occurrences of the name in material available to Joseph Smith must be ruled out as a possible source before the name can be claimed to be derived from the ancient text Joseph was supposedly translating. Until these criteria are met, any equivalences proposed between ancient divine names and those found in the Book of Abraham are simply sloppy guesswork and carry no probative weight.

It should be noted that parallels to the divine names in the Book of Abraham can be found much closer to home. The name Libnah occurs several times as a place name in the Old Testament (see F. Brown, S. Driver, and C. Briggs, Hebrew and English Lexikon of the Old Testament [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1980], 526), Elkanah is a personal name borne by eight individuals in the Old Testament (see R. Youngblood, "Elkanah," ABD II, 475-6), and Korash could be a variant of the Hebrew name for Cyrus, Koresh, which occurs, among other places, in Isaiah 44:28 and 45:1.

A skeptical attitude must also be taken to Lundquist's postulated correlation between the Book of Abraham place-name Olishem and the Akkadian place-name Ulisum (Lundquist, "Abraham at Ebla," 234-35). Ulisum occurs in a text from the reign of the Akkadian king Naram-Sin (ca. 2250 B.C.), and apparently refers to a place in northern Syria. According to the Book of Abraham, Olishem was located in Chaldea, which is to be located in southern Mesopotamia. For this equation to be valid, one has to accept the considerably weak argument that Chaldea could refer to a place in northern Syria and overlook the fact that Ulisum is attested far earlier than the most likely dates for Abraham. This equation cannot bear the weight of proving the antiquity or historicity of the Book of Abraham.

Our Comment: This shows the importance of actually looking at the footnotes and the research that writers use to support bold claims. In light of Thompson's comments on Lunquist's flawed reasoning, Daniel Peterson's comments about Joseph correctly identifying the four gods is not to be taken as evidence supporting Joseph.

Re: catch me up please

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:37 am
by _Tarski
So far the answer to my question appears to be "no".

And it appears (so far) that The Dude got it just right.
It is also what I expected frankly.
*sigh*

Re: catch me up please

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:49 am
by _Shulem
In his article on evidence for the Book of Abraham Dan Peterson writes:
Ancient texts indicate that the idolatrous gods of Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, and Korash, described in the book of Abraham (Abr. 1:6, 13, 17; facsimile 1, figs. 5–8), truly were worshipped in the ancient world, despite the fact that the Bible makes no mention of them..

Is this true?


There are no Egyptian gods with the names designated by the pretended translator, Joseph Smith. Dr. Peterson is trying to score cheap points and make them larger than life. Those figures in Facsimile No. 1 went by other names which Joseph Smith had no idea because he couldn't translate Egyptian.

Maybe Peterson can explain to us how Joseph Smith's so-called slave of Facsimile No. 3 was TRULY regarded by the ancient Egyptians. Doctor Peterson is just blowing hot air for the faithful to breathe.

Paul O

Re: catch me up please

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:24 am
by _ludwigm
Playing with names which sounds similar. No more.

In the 19 century in Hungary there were self-styled scholars who proved by similar means that every celebrity of the human history was Hungarian.
For example Tiglath-Pileser's name was really "téglát pazarol" (the meaning is brick wasting) because of his big royal palace...

English speakers can pronounce every vowel in any form they want, so that name-twisting method works better in that language.

by the way this type of pseudo science exists today, not only in Mormonism.
According to a certain Badiny Jós Ferenc (Francisco Jos Badiny), Jesus Christ did not belong to the Jewish nation, but instead he can be originated from the Parthian (Schytian‐Hun) ethnic group which was at the time present everywhere in Galilee.
The title of his book is "Jesus Christ the Parthian prince". Someway he was Hungarian.

See Sacred Characteristics of the Nation: Hungarianism as Political Religion (pdf)

Re: catch me up please

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:46 am
by _Drifting
Peterson - for a seemingly intelligent man he does a great impersonation of an idiot.

This piece of his is like a poker player explaining why his pair of sevens beats his opponents Royal flush.

It's nonsense...

everyone knows it's nonsense...

...and I strongly suspect Peterson himself is aware he is firing blanks.

Re: catch me up please

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:06 pm
by _Shulem
Drifting wrote:Peterson - for a seemingly intelligent man he does a great impersonation of an idiot.

This piece of his is like a poker player explaining why his pair of sevens beats his opponents Royal flush.

It's nonsense...

everyone knows it's nonsense...

...and I strongly suspect Peterson himself is aware he is firing blanks.


Hold on. Dr Peterson has a job, family, and a variety of circumstances that don't easily enable him to admit the truth even when he knows it. He will have to keep fighting the good fight because all that is based on testimony and perceived thoughts and feelings that defy reality. He has to live in his dream because he's stuck. I feel sorry for him but so long as he's happy it doesn't really bother me. Let him live his dream and create his own reality.

Paul O

Re: catch me up please

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:53 pm
by _DarkHelmet
Drifting wrote:This piece of his is like a poker player explaining why his pair of sevens beats his opponents Royal flush.


Good analogy. It's a typical Joseph Smith "bullseye" that apologists like to brag about. And they wonder why they have such a hard time converting and retaining more than 0.2% of the population.