DiscussMormonism.com

In listening to John Dehlin's podcast, I noticed that he's putting together some sort of web site to encourage church members and others to make it less painful and difficult for those who have already decided that the church isn't true.

I understand the sentiment, as leaving is incredibly painful. You lose friends, social standing, and even some family relationships. Once upon a time I started a blog dedicated to helping those who leave navigate things better than I did, and hopefully help avoid unnecessary pain and disruption of relationships.

What I found is that my efforts were seen as even worse than anything I said about the church's truth claims. I got harassment and threats, and one well-known Southern Utah mopologist told me I was trying to entice people to leave, as if I were standing in a pool of apostasy and telling the unwary, "Come on in! The water's fine." I had intended to just help others avoid the mistakes I had made, but it didn't work out, so I ended up killing the blog.

I learned that the pain and hurt and division among families and friends is intentional. My therapist helped me understand that it is in the church's interest to make the costs of leaving unbearable for all but the most principled. So, while I appreciate John's efforts, the church is never going to make it easy to leave; otherwise, more people would leave. If it were me, I'd focus on the apostates themselves and how they can maintain some kind of relationship with their Mormon families and friends.

Runtu wrote:If it were me, I'd focus on the apostates themselves and how they can maintain some kind of relationship with their Mormon families and friends.

Or maybe find a way for those who no longer believe to still feel welcome?

liz3564 wrote:Or maybe find a way for those who no longer believe to still feel welcome?

I think we're welcome as long we keep our unbelief to ourselves. :)

Runtu wrote:In listening to John Dehlin's podcast, I noticed that he's putting together some sort of web site to encourage church members and others to make it less painful and difficult for those who have already decided that the church isn't true.

I've also concluded this is a fool's errand. There is no way to make leaving the church easy. Any move in that direction would be seen by the GA's and most church members as total capitulation and surrender. When you are in a position that you think you have a complete monopoly on the authority to speak for God, there is no place to compromise. Anything else is complete crap as far as the church is concerned, and why would anyone compromise in the direction of complete crap?

One thing that would help people leave the church is if there was some sort of "good enough middle ground" people leaving could occupy. Take Joe Random Christian who decides he can't take the church he was raised in. So he decides to attend a more moderate Christian church. Now Joe Random Christian goes to his parents and tells them he won't be attending the church of his youth anymore, but he's still a Christian and regularly attends this more moderate church. The parents will be disappointed, but Joe Random's attendance at the new church will take a lot of the sting out of disclosure and smooth things over considerably. Joe Random Christian has moved into a "good enough middle ground."

Nothing like this exists for the Mormon church. Out is out, and out is evil. From my experience I've had people react even more negatively when I mention that I attend a Christian church after I tell them I'm no longer Mormon. In other words, not only is there no "good enough middle ground" anything else is often seen as even worse than just doing nothing.

Aristotle Smith wrote:Nothing like this exists for the Mormon church. Out is out, and out is evil. From my experience I've had people react even more negatively when I mention that I attend a Christian church after I tell them I'm no longer Mormon. In other words, not only is there no "good enough middle ground" anything else is often seen as even worse than just doing nothing.

This is very interesting, AS, and I'm wondering if there's a connection between this attitude you perceive in members against attending another Christian church, and how many apostates leave and are atheists. There has to be, really.

In fact, let's look at both things for a sec. Many of us atheist apostates have said that we recognized that the other churches were using the same kinds of mind games to keep their believers convinced that the LDS Church members use to keep their testimonies, and that upon seeing through these mind games on the LDS Church side, they are unwilling to resubmit to these games somewhere else.

Do you believe there's a possibility that active, believing LDS also recognize the mind games in other churches, and part of the aversion to other churches within the LDS membership is an unwillingness to get too close to these other ways of believing, lest doing so uncover the same mind games LDS play, and force them to confront this?

Maybe LDS tend not to like other churches so much because they know these other churches aren't true, but the idea of delving into why these others believe anyhow strikes too close to home.

What do you think?

Seth,

I would expect the reason AS sees a more negative reaction when he mentions that he attends another church is because his rejection of the LDS church is then seen as a rejection of Joseph Smith specifically instead of a rejection of religion in general.

Sethbag wrote:This is very interesting, AS, and I'm wondering if there's a connection between this attitude you perceive in members against attending another Christian church, and how many apostates leave and are atheists. There has to be, really.

Yes, I do believe there is a connection.

Sethbag wrote:In fact, let's look at both things for a sec. Many of us atheist apostates have said that we recognized that the other churches were using the same kinds of mind games to keep their believers convinced that the LDS Church members use to keep their testimonies, and that upon seeing through these mind games on the LDS Church side, they are unwilling to resubmit to these games somewhere else.

I have yet to see any evidence that any appreciable numbers of ex-Mo's know anything about other churches. There is a general assumption that it's all crap and that it's "the same kinds of mind games," but never anything specific. And, most churches simply don't have the social policies and traditions in place to play mind games with people; if they did it people would have a good laugh, pack up, and move to a different church. If you have some specific examples of mind games in other churches (Jehovah's Witnesses and fundie holy rollers don't count here), I'd be open to commenting on them.

Sethbag wrote:Do you believe there's a possibility that active, believing LDS also recognize the mind games in other churches, and part of the aversion to other churches within the LDS membership is an unwillingness to get too close to these other ways of believing, lest doing so uncover the same mind games LDS play, and force them to confront this?

No, because I think that if people really thought that, more LDS would be questioning and leaving. Also, like I said above, I don't see mind games being played in other churches. If you mean by mind games anything other than an atheistic materialism, then I guess they play mind games, but that's painting with a pretty broad brush.

I think more likely is the LDS feeling that other churches are crap because it reinforces the LDS narrative of it being the only true church. It's all "abominable creeds" and being ministers of Satan. Most LDS are profounding ignorant of other churches and think that what is described in Joseph Smith History is how Christian churches behave in the 21st century. I still attend Sunday School with my wife and it's rare that a week goes by without being peppered with comments about how other churches are sell outs, wusses, capitulators, don't behave well, are jealous of the LDS church, etc.

Fence Sitter wrote:Seth,

I would expect the reason AS sees a more negative reaction when he mentions that he attends another church is because his rejection of the LDS church is then seen as a rejection of Joseph Smith specifically instead of a rejection of religion in general.

Sounds about right. It could also be that it offends people that exmos might find something more meaningful than Mormonism.

Aristotle Smith wrote:I think more likely is the LDS feeling that other churches are crap because it reinforces the LDS narrative of it being the only true church. It's all "abominable creeds" and being ministers of Satan. Most LDS are profounding ignorant of other churches and think that what is described in Joseph Smith History is how Christian churches behave in the 21st century. I still attend Sunday School with my wife and it's rare that a week goes by without being peppered with comments about how other churches are sell outs, wusses, capitulators, don't behave well, are jealous of the LDS church, etc.

One of my biggest issues is that, although my wife says she is willing to go to another church with me, she will only go to the most seriously conservative churches, and my experience visiting them is that they are just as fixated on appearances and self-righteousness as the LDS church is. I would love to try out a more moderate, mainstream religion, but she thinks they're too liberal. So, I haven't found another church I'm comfortable with.

Aristotle Smith wrote:
One thing that would help people leave the church is if there was some sort of "good enough middle ground" people leaving could occupy.

Totally agree with this. At times I wish JD would start some type of reform Mormon church because I think my family would accept me joining another branch of Mormonism over outright rejection of the church.
I applaud what John is trying to do. I think he is attempting to make the issues that cause people to leave to be more accessible and public. Who knows, maybe in another 5 years people will not automatically assume we wanted out of the church to sin or because we were offended.