About the hypothesis of bcspace

[_tapirrider]

bcspace gave his hypothesis on another thread.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22190

"by the way, my own hypothesis does not have any "unsouled". It assumes, as per LDS doctrine, that every living thing has a spirit. In my hypothesis (read: not doctrine), preAdamite homo sapiens have spirits, but they are not the literal spirit children of God, but lesser spirits not capable of taking advantage of the available brain power; perhaps a plausible explanation for a quarter of a million years of homo sapiens without civilization."

If by civilization you mean domesticated plants and animals it might surprise you to know that the cause of agriculture was climate change. It had nothing to do with spirits from children of God coming to earth and into the family of Adam and Eve.

Origin of agriculture and domestication of plants and animals linked to early holocene climate amelioration
http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/jul102004/54.pdf

"That agriculture did not start during the Pleistocene can be explained from the fact that last glacial climates were extremely unfavourable to agriculture"

Was agriculture impossible during the pleistocene but mandatory during the holocene?
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/anthro/facul ... rigins.pdf


bcspace said "they are not the literal spirit children of God, but lesser spirits not capable of taking advantage of the available brain power"

45 years after Columbus discovered the Indians and only 20 years after Martin Luther published The Ninety-Five Theses and began the reformation, Pope Paul III addressed this very issue.


Sublimus Dei, May 29, 1537
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Paul03/p3subli.htm

"The enemy of the human race, who opposes all good deeds in order to bring men to destruction, beholding and envying this, invented a means never before heard of, by which he might hinder the preaching of God's word of Salvation to the people: he inspired his satellites who, to please him, have not hesitated to publish abroad that the Indians of the West and the South, and other people of whom We have recent knowledge should be treated as dumb brutes created for our service, pretending that they are incapable of receiving the Catholic Faith."

These brutes that looked human but whose spirits were not the children of God, these are the very people that domesticated plants that today provide 3/5 of the worlds cultivated crops. None of these plants were mentioned at all in the Book of Mormon. These domestications began before Adam and Eve. The world owes a debt of gratitude to the ancient American inhabitants, not a hypothesis that their souls were not the spirit children of a heavenly father. Statements like that are quite offensive and are nothing more than old ideas that have been disputed for centuries.

Here are some sources for domestications in ancient America.

The Journey of New World Foods
http://www.pbs.org/kcet/when-worlds-col ... foods.html

"By one estimate, three-fifths of the crops now being cultivated around the world were developed by indigenous Americans"

The domestication of maize and its spread throughout the Americas is an interesting study.

A single domestication for maize shown by multilocus microsatellite genotyping
http://www.pnas.org/content/99/9/6080.full.pdf+html

"From an early diversification in the Mexican highlands, the phylogenies and PCA suggest two lineages or paths of dispersal. One path traces through western and northern Mexico into the southwestern U.S. and then into the eastern U.S. and Canada. A second path leads out of the highlands to the western and southern lowlands of Mexico into Guatemala, the Caribbean Islands, the lowlands of South America, and finally the Andes Mountains."

"maize of the eastern U.S. with its long, slender ears was derived from that of the southwestern U.S., which in turn came from northern Mexico."

"The maize of the Andes Mountains with its distinctive hand-grenade-shaped ears was derived from the maize of lowland South America, which in turn came from maize of the lowlands of Guatemala and southern Mexico."

Regions within the U.S. did not have maize until after the Book of Mormon timeline had ended. But these people with "lesser spirits" had domesticated their own crops and they did this before the Book of Mormon timeline began.

Eastern North America as an independent center of plant domestication
http://www.pnas.org/content/103/33/12223.full

Marshelder, Chenopod (lambsquarter or goosefoot), Squash-Cucurbito pepo (includes crooknecks, acorn and scallop squashes) and Sunflower were domesticated in the region of the United States without diffusion from Meso-America.

The domestication of the wild turkey also occurred in the region of the U.S., independent of the birds in Mexico.

Ancient mitochondrial dna analysis reveals complexity of indigenous north american turkey domestication
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2010/ ... l.pdf+html

"Phylogeographic analyses indicate that this domestic breed originated from outside the region, but rules out the South Mexican domestic turkey (Meleagris gallopavo gallopavo) as a progenitor. A strong genetic bottleneck within the Southwest turkeys also reflects intensive human selection and breeding. This study points to at least two occurrences of turkey domestication in precontact North America and illuminates the intensity and sophistication of New World animal breeding practices."

[_bcspace]

If by civilization you mean domesticated plants and animals it might surprise you to know that the cause of agriculture was climate change. It had nothing to do with spirits from children of God coming to earth and into the family of Adam and Eve.

That's quite alright. I was merely comparing my hypothesis to Spurven's who was well before (some 29,000 years ago) the Neolithic era, making the degree of complexity (and level of conversation) unscientific. Plus my hypothesis includes a creative period before the garden state; that God waited until all was ready before placing man into the garden state.

In other words, it doesn't matter if there was a direct uplift or not and domestication may or may not have come with the Fall. But my hypothesis, if true, places the Fall at the latest around the time of the first civilizations which is within one order of magnitude of the traditional Christian date. Whatever, you think civilization to be, I'm merely going with the general science that the first civilization is Sumer.

The key aspect of my hypothesis is an undefined state before the garden state in which it is not stated there there is no death. That is why evolution can swim with LDS doctrine because LDS doctrine and scripture supports such a state. Everything else is a broad as you need to fit within science or doctrine.

The anti Mormons used to attack the notion of death before the garden, but this has been solved doctrinally and science doesn't preclude it. So being defeated on that front, perhaps partly because of my hypothesis, they have shifted to science alone but it can't work because we have to assume that God can do things we know He already has done such as create different kinds of spirits or bring men to different areas of the world etc. All the usual critics have to argue with is a Deus ex machina which is merely the common debate between atheists and believers in God. So to make it easy for them, as I said, all I have done is use what it is written that God has already done. I haven't made up any leaps that we have not yet seen God do. To argue against that is not the point which remain an hypothesis compatible with science AND LDS doctrine. Therefore, God is in the machine whether they like it or not.

[_moksha]

Bc, have you taken into account that evidence of civilizations perish over time, from those of Mesoamerica to elsewhere. Periods of glaciation and interglaciation have a direct effect on ending cultures as well as erasing their traces.

[_Spurven Ten Sing]

That's quite all right. I was merely comparing my hypothesis to Spurven's who was well before (some 29,000 years ago) the Neolithic era, making the degree of complexity (and level of conversation) unscientific. Plus my hypothesis includes a creative period before the garden state; that God waited until all was ready before placing man into the garden state.

bcspace, I won, I won, I won!

[_tapirrider]

Would the people that built this have spirits that are children of God?
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/ ... /mann-text

They lived long before Adam and Eve and built the site before agriculture. At the time that Gobekli Tepe was built the Americas were inhabited. Did the people in America at that time have spirits that are children of God?

[_Buffalo]

I tried to tell him this before, but he prefers his ad hoc theories to both science and doctrine.

[_Quasimodo]

This fun and marginally on topic:

Popcorn Discovery Shows Ancient Peruvians Ate The Stuff Thousands Of Years Ago

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/19/what-did-ancient-peruvians-snack-on_n_1215849.html

Seems popcorn was developed around 7,000 years ago. No doubt by humans who were not God's children. No evidence of buttered popcorn, though.

[_Morley]

This fun and marginally on topic:

Popcorn Discovery Shows Ancient Peruvians Ate The Stuff Thousands Of Years Ago

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/19/what-did-ancient-peruvians-snack-on_n_1215849.html

Seems popcorn was developed around 7,000 years ago. No doubt by humans who were not God's children. No evidence of buttered popcorn, though.

I love this, Quasi. I'll bet they gave bags of popcorn to Adam and Eve to make them feel better after they were kicked out of the Garden.

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[_Quasimodo]

This fun and marginally on topic:

Popcorn Discovery Shows Ancient Peruvians Ate The Stuff Thousands Of Years Ago

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/19/what-did-ancient-peruvians-snack-on_n_1215849.html

Seems popcorn was developed around 7,000 years ago. No doubt by humans who were not God's children. No evidence of buttered popcorn, though.

I love this, Quasi. I'll bet they gave bags of popcorn to Adam and Eve to make them feel better after they were kicked out of the Garden.

I wonder what movies they watched?

(Pity about Etta)

[_Morley]

I wonder what movies they watched?

When Women had Tails.

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