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The theory goes like this: death stopped in the world for an indeterminate period during the Garden period. So what does science tell us?

In the ocean since forever almost, there are these tiny animals that are microscopic that comprise part of the plankton soup. Trillions of these animals have little shells and when they die they "snow" down at a steady rate to the ocean bottom. Growth and die off is tied to seasons, blooming in the summer sun. They settle in distinct layers each layer corresponding to a year.
Boring mud, right? True enough, but give a nerd enough money and he will figure out how to justify the grant. In this case, scientists have been able to do two things with this mud. First, they were able to bore smelly cores from the sediment that they can use to date things. They have a constant record going back something like 500,000 years. (or something very long) The record is unbroken.

Second, the shelled critters are not the only component of the layer, as silt from rivers, dust from the air, etc. make up large portions in the layers in known proportions. Ecologists have been able to show when these critters have been killed off by pollution in regions, by seeing they vanish from the layers, even in very short periods of weeks. So? They can see periods of no death in the record going back a long time.

Most cores show an unbroken chain of these critters for the entire duration. No breaks, even weeks long. According to science, in this one field, this disproves the notion of the bcspacian no death period.

Even bcpacianism is disproven by established science (not even counting the Eh Mej Conundrum)!

I told you bcspace. Out of harmony with both science and scripture. No man can serve two masters.

Excellent work STS.

Even bcpacianism is disproven by established science

How so?

[taps the sign] L-o-c-a-l g-a-r-d-e-n s-t-a-t-e.

Plus, I'll be willing to bet that you could have a global garden state of a few years or decades and no one would notice especially in this case as much of the material comprising marine snow remains suspended in the upper layers of the ocean and only a small percentage of this material falls as snow during each year such as during algae bloom production. In that case, you might have a few years of somewhat thinner layers at most.

QED

I told you bcspace. Out of harmony with both science and scripture. No man can serve two masters.

Excellent work STS.

Hate to say it, but STS did not do his research.

bcspace wrote:

Even bcpacianism is disproven by established science

How so?

[taps the sign] L-o-c-a-l g-a-r-d-e-n s-t-a-t-e.

Plus, I'll be willing to bet that you could have a global garden state of a few years or decades and no one would notice especially in this case as much of the material comprising marine snow remains suspended in the upper layers of the ocean and only a small percentage of this material falls as snow during each year such as during algae bloom production. In that case, you might have a few years of somewhat thinner layers at most.

QED

I told you bcspace. Out of harmony with both science and scripture. No man can serve two masters.

Excellent work STS.

Hate to say it, but STS did not do his research.

So you're saying that there was no death, but only in a small geographic region known as the Garden of Eden? Everywhere else death was going on as usual?

So in other words, God only suspended death in the first place so he could start it up again after A&E ate the fruit. So A&E didn't really need to eat the fruit at all, and they have no important purpose.

And how is it you could sustain life without death in a local garden state, anyway? Life cannot be sustained without the death of other life, even if it's only plant life.

Like I said, at odds with both science and scripture.

So you're saying that there was no death, but only in a small geographic region known as the Garden of Eden? Everywhere else death was going on as usual?

That's one possibility. For example, if everywhere was the Garden state, to what were Adam and Eve cast out into?

And how is it you could sustain life without death in a local garden state, anyway? Life cannot be sustained without the death of other life, even if it's only plant life.

Like I said, at odds with both science and scripture.

How so when you have deus ex machina? And what if the state of no death applies only to certain species or perhaps just one? Doesn't matter. Everywhere you turn, evolution swims with LDS doctrine.

bcspace wrote:

So you're saying that there was no death, but only in a small geographic region known as the Garden of Eden? Everywhere else death was going on as usual?

That's one possibility. For example, if everywhere was the Garden state, to what were Adam and Eve cast out into?

It's internally inconsistent, I'll give you that.

bcspace wrote:

And how is it you could sustain life without death in a local garden state, anyway? Life cannot be sustained without the death of other life, even if it's only plant life.

Like I said, at odds with both science and scripture.

How so when you have deus ex machina? And what if the state of no death applies only to certain species or perhaps just one? Doesn't matter. Everywhere you turn, evolution swims with LDS doctrine.

A deus ex machina is a sure indicator that what you're dealing with is a lazy fiction writer.

Regardless, LDS doctrine says there was no death before the fall, full stop. Incompatible with evolution.

Otherwise anyone could just as easily use your logic to suggest that Jesus isn't the one and only savior of the world. Sure the doctrine says that, it means one and only not counting Earl Jones of Tallahassee, Florida.

bcspace wrote:How so when you have deus ex machina? And what if the state of no death applies only to certain species or perhaps just one? Doesn't matter. Everywhere you turn, evolution swims with LDS doctrine.

So you consider your theories deus ex machina? I mean, I totally agree with you, I'm just surprised to see you being so candid.

bcspace wrote:

So you're saying that there was no death, but only in a small geographic region known as the Garden of Eden? Everywhere else death was going on as usual?

That's one possibility. For example, if everywhere was the Garden state, to what were Adam and Eve cast out into?

And how is it you could sustain life without death in a local garden state, anyway? Life cannot be sustained without the death of other life, even if it's only plant life.

Like I said, at odds with both science and scripture.

How so when you have deus ex machina? And what if the state of no death applies only to certain species or perhaps just one? Doesn't matter. Everywhere you turn, evolution swims with LDS doctrine.

BCSpace,

This morning I woke up at zero-dark-thirty, and as usual, with bleary eyes checked in on the board here before fortifying myself with a cup of yummy mountain roast mocha. (One of the many benefits of rational living is that you can weigh the benefits and risks of things like coffee and tea based on facts instead of religious fantasy. Anyway, I digress).

Today, like almost every day, after reading over some of the stuff that you and subgenius and ldsfaqs wrote over the last 24 hours, I felt extremely grateful for having left the Church and being able to live life based on evidence and truth rather than always trying to deny, distort, or disregard science and scientific fact in favor of religion.

Sometimes I get annoyed at you guys, like I am with you now on this thread, but then I think about how much better off the world is with you guys occupied here rather than out there practicing your kind of thinking on behalf of humankind.
__________________

by the way: When I think of your "swim together" expression for describing science and LDS doctrine, the predator - bait fish relationship always comes to mind. (Must be the anchovies.)

What's really funny is that since the world appears to have been created through entirely naturalistic processes, BCSpace goes with that, but in order to jive with Mormon teaching on the subject, he has to introduce a miraculous process so out of line with naturalistic processes that it begs the question why naturalistic processes were so necessary in the first place. If God at some point was going to snap his fingers in some colossal magic trick, why did he bother using natural processes in the first place?

Anyhow, BCSpace carves out the space for his ideas from the wording of 2 Nephi 2:22, which looks like this:

the imaginary prophet Lehi wrote: And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

BCSpace argues that the deathless state only obtained after things were created, but during the creation process, it's game on. This is destroyed, however, by pointing out that it refers to all things which were created, and it's inarguably true that almost everything that ever lived on earth lived and died, along with most of their entire species, prior to any reasonable Biblical timeframe for the Garden of Eden.

So, either the Lehi was using some specialized, jargon version of "all things" which really means "almost nothing", or else he was using some specialized, jargon version of "created" which really means "not the process of creation at all, but some arbitrary point at which God snapped his fingers and decided that all things existent at that very moment in time were to be considered 'created'".

In other words, BCSpace has to invent new meanings for the English language, which only he has ever been able to divine (well, and Lehi...), in order for his reading to be correct.

His argument, as ever, is only convincing to himself.

Sethbag wrote:So, either the Lehi was using some specialized, jargon version of "all things" which really means "almost nothing", or else he was using some specialized, jargon version of "created" which really means "not the process of creation at all, but some arbitrary point at which God snapped his fingers and decided that all things existent at that very moment in time were to be considered 'created'".

Well, that sort of thing isn't without precedent. You know, the whole 'endless punishment' does not mean 'punishment without end' thing.