Mental Health, Mormonism and Delusion (Update)

[_Yoda]

I would like to see a believer take the challenge.

Why would they bother?

When all they have to do is label it anti-mormon and then completely ignore the whole OP. It's much easier to argue about how anti-mormon DrW is than to argue that the batsh*t crazy beliefs of Mormonism make sense.

If some guy started making claims comparable with those made in the early Mormon movement then they would no doubt be considered to be delusional. The continued willful make believe continued by the leaders just continues that legacy.

Thought provoking post, it's a shame that no believers are likely to be willing to provide a well thought out response.

Thanks,

Hasa Diga Eebowai

Check out my response, right above yours. ;-)

[_emilysmith]

Obviously, people's brains determine how they perceive the world. we are only so open to cultural and perceptual changes, and some people are more open and accepting than others. This may be the result of an individual's fear response.

http://blogcritics.org/politics/article ... -liberals/

More conservative people tend to have different brains... larger amygdala and more expressed fear and anxiety responses. This makes them more likely to "stick with the heard."

Delusional may be a harsh word. Culturally limited may be more appropriate. Even scientists' have a culture that limits their way of thinking and approaching problems. The important thing to realize, though, is that scientific method is, so far, the most reliable way of determining what is true and what is not.

In order to convert someone from their current belief system is to change their culture, and there are a number of ways to accomplish this. Some people are going to hold onto their own personal culture a lot more tenaciously than others, though. Whether or not it is unhealthy, is determined by a great number of factors. A group of people could be totally wrong about something, but still have a culturally ingrained way of life that gives them an advantage.

Something to think about, anyways.

[_DrW]

From the reference provided by emilysmith:

1. Scientists at University College London found that "people with conservative views have brains with larger amygdalas, almond shaped areas in the centre of the brain often associated with anxiety and emotions. On the other hand, they have a smaller anterior cingulate, an area at the front of the brain associated with courage and looking on the bright side of life."

Read more: http://blogcritics.org/politics/article/its-actually-conservatives-vs-liberalsand-liberals/#ixzz1mefnLupx

New insight into the enigma of the 2012 Republican primary presidential candidates?

Thanks, Emily.

[_Buffalo]

I'd like to see a response to OP's thesis instead of an attack on him personally.

[_maklelan]

I'd like to see a response to OP's thesis instead of an attack on him personally.

Asked and answered, but you don't find it methodologically problematic to take a broad definition of a psychological disorder, ignore its actual usage in medicine, and then unilaterally diagnose an entire faith community as psychologically ill? You don't believe this is accurately characterized as "anti-Mormon"?

Tell me, if (or rather, when) ultra-conservative posters come on here to insist that atheists have psychological disorders, do you insist that all commenters refrain from judging the methodologies until they've fully and directly complied with the challenges leveled by the TBM, or do you immediately start criticizing?

[_DrW]

That's a lie. "Show me it's not true" is not asking one to consider whether or not it's true, it's asserting it's true and challenging others to prove you wrong. Your little game doesn't get off the ground, though, because your definition is inadequate and does not apply to Mormons. Delusions are always pathological. Belief systems are not a pathology. Also, delusions are defined by clear and indisputable evidence that they are false. You cannot point to clear and indisputable evidence that Mormonism is false, all you can do is point to the general likelihood that certain perspectives within Mormonism are not true. You may feel quite strongly about those likelihoods, but that is a far cry from clear and indisputable evidence. Also, you do medicine a great disservice when you try to manipulate the vagaries of broad definitions of clinical disorders just to drum up fodder for your bigotry.

If you will look at the OP, I simply asked why the unfounded and demonstrably false beliefs of TBMs would not fit the definition of delusion and fit the DSM criteria for delusional disorder.

How is this a great disservice to medicine? Are you perhaps being a bit over-dramatic in your response?

Again you betray your manipulation of the facts and these definitions. First, you cannot possibly show that such beliefs are pathological, and so you cannot, by definition, call it a delusion. Second, do members who are aware of these facts continue to insist that the Book of Abraham is a literal and accurate translation of the very words found in the Smith papyri, or do they find other ways to move the goal posts, like insisting the real Vorlage is missing, or that the English text is an inspired rendering of a normal funerary text? If the latter, it cannot by definition be a delusion. It can be irrational and it can be dogmatic, but it cannot be a delusion.

I am not claiming that Mormon beliefs are pathological, and have already stated, twice, that in terms of the formal criteria for a diagnosis of delusional disorder, religious beliefs normally get a pass. This does not mean that these beliefs do not fit the published criteria for determining what is delusional. Many of them do.

[_Buffalo]

I'd like to see a response to OP's thesis instead of an attack on him personally.

Asked and answered, but you don't find it methodologically problematic to take a broad definition of a psychological disorder, ignore its actual usage in medicine, and then unilaterally diagnose an entire faith community as psychologically ill? You don't believe this is accurately characterized as "anti-Mormon"?

Tell me, if (or rather, when) ultra-conservative posters come on here to insist that atheists have psychological disorders, do you insist that all commenters refrain from judging the methodologies until they've fully and directly complied with the challenges leveled by the TBM, or do you immediately start criticizing?

More like anti-religious. This use of the diagnosis would apply to most people of faith. But why IS faith excluded? That's an interesting question to explore. It seems to meet all the requirements for a delusion disorder.

What psychological disorder would affect atheists in general?

[Guest]

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[Guest]

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[Guest]

maklelan,

Please consider the following religions and some of their beliefs and let me know which ones you would consider delusional or otherwise pathological.

Heavens Gate: Members capable of entering other dimensions and, believing that this Earth was about to be wiped clean, determined that they should leave their human forms behind in order to be transported to space craft that was trailing behind the Hale Bopp comet.

This lead to a mass suicide that was accomplished by ingestion of phenobarbital mixed with applesauce or pudding, washed down with vodka. Additionally, plastic bags were secured around their heads after ingesting the mix to induce asphyxiation. Authorities found the dead lying neatly in their own bunk beds, faces and torsos covered by a square, purple cloth. Each member carried a five dollar bill and three quarters in their pockets. All 39 were dressed in identical black shirts and sweat pants, brand new black-and-white Nike Windrunner athletic shoes, and armband patches reading "Heaven's Gate Away Team" .

Delusional or not delusional?
Pathology involved?

Fundamentalist Islam: It is an obligation from God to kill the enemies of Islam. (Osama bin Laden, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab and many others have killed, or attempted to kill, innocent civilians as willed by Allah).

Delusional or not delusional?
Pathology involved?

Mormonism: Children who die before the age of eight automatically inherit the Celestial Kingdom. Based on this belief, a young mother sends her two young boys to the Celestial Kingdom by throwing them off a bridge into the ice choked Columbia River.

Delusional or not delusional?
Pathology involved?