Mental Health, Mormonism and Delusion (Update)

[Guest]

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[_maklelan]

If you will look at the OP, I simply asked why the unfounded and demonstrably false beliefs of TBMs would not fit the definition of delusion and fit the DSM criteria for delusional disorder.

And I've explained why. I've also pointed out that it's quite ridiculous to presume to diagnose millions of people all over the world using an inadequate definition of an uncommon psychological disorder.

How is this a great disservice to medicine?

You seriously misrepresent the disorder and its diagnosis.

Are you perhaps being a bit over-dramatic in your response?

No, but you're certainly being over-dramatic in your diagnosis.

I am not claiming that Mormon beliefs are pathological,

Then you cannot call them delusional.

and have already stated, twice, that in terms of the formal criteria for a diagnosis of delusional disorder, religious beliefs normally get a pass.

Because they simply don't qualify. Religious beliefs are not pathologies. Delusions are pathological. There are other issues as well, that I discuss below.

This does not mean that these beliefs do not fit the published criteria for determining what is delusional. Many of them do.

The published criteria? First, there's a difference between delusions and delusional disorder. Delusional disorder is a disorder involving specific types of delusions, and that leads us to: Second, delusional disorder has to do with non-bizarre delusions, which are real life situations like being followed or poisoned. You omitted that portion from your definition. Here's what it really says in the DSM:

Delusional Disorder

A. Non-bizarre delusions (involving situations that occur in real life, such as being followed, poisoned, infected, loved at a distance or being deceived by spouse or lover, or having a disease) of at least 1 month’s duration.

This disorder specifically preclude "bizarre delusions," like missing organs or being observed by aliens. Obviously the beliefs to which you refer do not qualify as non-bizarre delusions. You manipulated the definition to omit that information, though, because it complicated your rhetoric. You also omitted the types of disorders, since none of them align with the conclusion you assert. Basically, you lied about the definition and then took advantage of the resulting vagaries to insist that religious beliefs in general qualify. That's a quite dishonest and manipulative way to satisfy this desire you obviously have to garner approval from other equally prejudiced people here by misleading them about how depraved Mormonism is.

[_DrW]

More like anti-religious. This use of the diagnosis would apply to most people of faith. But why IS faith excluded? That's an interesting question to explore. It seems to meet all the requirements for a delusion disorder.

What psychological disorder would affect atheists in general?

I think the problem with diagnosing everyone in a religion with disorders is that they may simply be emulating and imitating the original behavior of the founder/s of their religious movement. If the original founder had a mental illness and the followers after him/her simply believe everything that is taught or desire to have similar experiences then they could be copying behavior similar to a disorder without actually having one themselves.

This doesn't change the point in the OP however that the foundation of the new religious movement is completely delusional and fabricated. The process of rationalizing those delusional beliefs makes no difference to that fact.

Thanks,

Hasa Diga Eebowai

Again - I am not claiming to diagnose religionists with a psychological disorder.

I am simply pointing out that many of the beliefs of many religionists fit the definition of delusion as well as the published criteria for a delusional disorder.

As stated up front in the OP, in terms of a formal diagnosis (most) religious beliefs get a pass on this.

Please see my post above.

[_maklelan]

maklelan,

Please consider the following religions and some of their beliefs and let me know which ones you would consider delusional or otherwise pathological.

Heavens Gate: Members capable of entering other dimensions and, believing that this Earth was about to be wiped clean, determined that they should leave their human forms behind in order to be transported to space craft that was trailing behind the Hale Bopp comet.

This lead to a mass suicide that was accomplished by ingestion of phenobarbital mixed with applesauce or pudding, washed down with vodka. Additionally, plastic bags were secured around their heads after ingesting the mix to induce asphyxiation. Authorities found the dead lying neatly in their own bunk beds, faces and torsos covered by a square, purple cloth. Each member carried a five dollar bill and three quarters in their pockets. All 39 were dressed in identical black shirts and sweat pants, brand new black-and-white Nike Windrunner athletic shoes, and armband patches reading "Heaven's Gate Away Team" .

Delusional or not delusional?
Pathology involved?

On the part of Applewhite, probably. On the part of his followers, there could be a number of things compelling them.

Fundamentalist Islam: It is an obligation from God to kill the enemies of Islam. (Osama bin Laden, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab and many others have killed, or attempted to kill, innocent civilians as willed by Allah).

Delusional or not delusional?
Pathology involved?

Believing that it's a religious obligation to kill is not a delusion. Believing God has commanded via a specific event a specific person to kill a person or people in a specific way could certainly be a delusion, but there could be other things behind it as well.

Mormonism: Children who die before the age of eight automatically inherit the Celestial Kingdom. Based on this belief, a young mother sends her two young boys to the Celestial Kingdom by throwing them off a bridge into the ice choked Columbia River.

Delusional or not delusional?
Pathology involved?

On the part of the mother, probably. Trying to insist that all adult members of the Mormon church suffer from delusional disorder because that's the most likely motivation for a young mother having murdered her two children is just disgusting and depraved. What a perverse and sickening degree of bigotry.

[_maklelan]

Again - I am not claiming to diagnose religionists with a psychological disorder

Yes you are. You cannot insist that it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck and that everyone else needs to prove to you it's not a duck, and then turn around and insist you're not claiming it's a duck. That's just asinine.

I am simply pointing out that many of the beliefs of many religionists fit the definition of delusion as well as the published criteria for a delusional disorder.

As stated up front in the OP, in terms of a formal diagnosis (most) religious beliefs get a pass on this.

Please see my post above.

Please see my post above.

[_DrW]

Mormonism: Children who die before the age of eight automatically inherit the Celestial Kingdom. Based on this belief, a young mother sends her two young boys to the Celestial Kingdom by throwing them off a bridge into the ice choked Columbia River.

Delusional or not delusional?
Pathology involved?

On the part of the mother, probably. Trying to insist that all adult members of the Mormon church suffer from delusional disorder because that's the most likely motivation for a young mother having murdered her two children is just disgusting and depraved. What a perverse and sickening degree of bigotry.

Maklelan,
Think about what you have just said here. You have acknowledged, and rightly so, that the mother in this case was delusional, due to the fact that she believed, literally, that her two young sons would enter the Celestial Kingdom if they were to die before the age of eight.

How can this be considered a delusional belief when held by a young mother who had the will to act upon it, and not a delusional belief when held by those who do not?

[_Samantabhadra]

I don't think you'll find it listed in the DSM but in my experience, most atheists suffer from an addiction to logic and a dis-embodied philosophical perspective. That is to say, they do not accept that rationality has any limits, and they downplay (or ignore) the importance of lived experience to human knowledge.

[Guest]

Again - I am not claiming to diagnose religionists with a psychological disorder

Yes you are. You cannot insist that it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck and that everyone else needs to prove to you it's not a duck, and then turn around and insist you're not claiming it's a duck. That's just asinine.

I am simply pointing out that many of the beliefs of many religionists fit the definition of delusion as well as the published criteria for a delusional disorder.

As stated up front in the OP, in terms of a formal diagnosis (most) religious beliefs get a pass on this.

Please see my post above.

Please see my post above.

Well, my friend, we will just have to disagree on this, I guess.

If I state that I am not claiming a diagnosis, on what evidence do you claim that I am?

[_DrW]

I don't think you'll find it listed in the DSM but in my experience, most atheists suffer from an addiction to logic and a dis-embodied philosophical perspective. That is to say, they do not accept that rationality has any limits, and they downplay (or ignore) the importance of lived experience to human knowledge.

I would agree with the first sentence and label it a virtue rather than an addiction.

I would not agree with the second sentence. If one does not believe in God, then experience and knowledge gained from life experience becomes all the more important and valuable.

While my active LDS friends are sitting bored to death in meetings, I am reading, or biking or sailing or flying. I certainly experience more of the real world on Sunday than they do. And since I do not believe that wisdom or knowledge that can come from the scriptures is severely limited as is the sage advice and teachings that can come from a inward looking geriatric leadership, I will take real world experience to pew experience any day.

[_Buffalo]

I don't think you'll find it listed in the DSM but in my experience, most atheists suffer from an addiction to logic and a dis-embodied philosophical perspective. That is to say, they do not accept that rationality has any limits, and they downplay (or ignore) the importance of lived experience to human knowledge.

You may be right.