Censorship Rampage over Bott

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_Kevin Graham
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Censorship Rampage over Bott

Post by _Kevin Graham »

They've banned bcspace and others for simply disagreeing with the way Bott has been attacked. Late last night I posted some thoughts in a few short posts on two separate threads. This morning I find out that they accumulated 10+ reputation points from observers, and yet the mods decided to ban me from the threads without discussion. No announcement had been made about my banning, and of course, no explanation given.

What I found interesting was that Juliann responded to my post with a well reasoned response, but she seems to be unaware that i'm unable to respond to her. Here is post #1:

So much for freedom to think for yourself. All this guy did was produce a rational explanation for the Priesthood ban, based on decades of Mormon upbringing, inferences from authoritative teachings, apologetic arguments about how God discriminates, etc. Now he is being dragged under the bus just to so the Church can save face; his crime was to make an embarrassing Mormon doctrine public again, and this time during election year.

The Church's position recently is that there is no official position as to why the ban occurred and why it was enforced for more than a century. All it is willing to say on that issue is that no one really knows the reason it happened, which leaves critically thinking people in the dark. On that basis alone, the Church has not specifically rejected Bott's explanation as false. It just gives some vague denunciation of "racism" while refusing to address the many racist statements condoned by the Church over the years. But I've seen apologists argue that the God of the Bible does in fact discriminate (i.e. e withheld the Levitical priesthood, he had his own "chosen people," etc).

Apparently, Professor Bott doesn't have much freedom to come up with his own explanations that appear perfectly sound. Again, his was one of the most charitable explanations I've heard. He referred to it as a blessing as opposed to the way in which past LDS leaders had traditionally taught: a CURSE! But I guess a former Mission President, Bishop and current educator for the Church on matters of doctrine and history, puts him in a bad position to speak as someone who has a clue.

Ecclesiastical repercussions for having an opinion are already understood by the number of Facebook and Twitter comments I've seen from Mormons. Comments saying we should expect he will be fired or that he will be stuck on the career ladder. All for what? For having an opinion that is perfectly consistent with LDS teachings. There isn't a single thing he said that ran contrary to official LDS doctrine. Nothing.


Post #2:

Repentance from what? What was his great sin here?

Allowing years of Mormon teaching influence his thinking?


Post #3:

Nothing he said in his interview was out of the norm. DCP never wrote internet pieces condemning his colleague's racist views. He is only being attacked now by his own because the Church's image must come first at all costs. It is more of the same deception campaign where some members of the Church believe that honesty is a nuisance. Being fully upfront about your beliefs is not necessarily a good thing and the people attacking Bott are sending a loud message, not against racism, but against freedom of expression and opinion. As if to say, shut up Bott, "if we want your opinion we'll give it to you."


In another thread I responded to Dan Peterson's remarks:

Dan said:

We don't know the reason for the ban.

Perhaps it was a mistake. In that case, we don't know why the Lord permitted it to endure until 1978.

If it wasn't a mistake, we still don't know the reason for it.


Hinckley said it wasn't a mistake. Logic dictates that if it wasn't a mistake, then it was right. If it was right, then it came from God.

According to Brigham Young, racist doctrine about Negroes is the "Law of God" and the Priesthood ban was of "divine institution." That hardly strikes me as indicative of someone who doesn't believe he knows why the ban is instituted. But the Church would never say this in today's race-conscious society, especially with one of their own running for President. Political correctness must prevail over truth. Can you tell me why I should reject Brigham Young's doctrine on this, and accept some PR press release - written by God knows who - about how the Church rejects racism? The 1949 proclamation on the subject was equally clear that this doctrine was really a doctrine.

It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that Negroes may become members of the Church but that they are not entitled to the priesthood at the present time."


The Church now claims it doesn't know why the ban took place, but all this proves is that it is the Church (not Bott) contradicting the Church. No wonder Bruce R/ McConkie told Mormons to just ignore everything that was said on the matter before 1978. The Church has not called this a mistake for the same reasons most billion dollar corporations often concede court battles, pay outrageous fines for wrongdoing, but never officially admit having done anything wrong. To admit a mistake would open up a whole new can of problematic worms for the Church. Such as why would God's Church be making mistakes like this while creating an institution of racism that prospers for more than a century? It was clearly taught as coming from God, so if the Church can make a mistake about this, then everything else it says coming from God could be wrong too. It all depends how the Church wants to change with the times, and it seems clear to me that society is shaping future LDS "revelations" more than anything else.

The Church is dancing around this problem well, allowing the folks in the PR dept take the lead. Hardly something one would expect from God's true Church. To most of us on the outside, the Church's reactions are precisely as one would expect from a corporation. It was careful not to specifically condemn Bott's remarks. All it did was just denounce "racism" which it never defined, and said Bott's opinion wasn't official doctrine
_Stormy Waters

Re: Censorship Rampage over Bott

Post by _Stormy Waters »

Kevin Graham wrote:Nothing he said in his interview was out of the norm. DCP never wrote internet pieces condemning his colleague's racist views. He is only being attacked now by his own because the Church's image must come first at all costs. It is more of the same deception campaign where some members of the Church believe that honesty is a nuisance. Being fully upfront about your beliefs is not necessarily a good thing and the people attacking Bott are sending a loud message, not against racism, but against freedom of expression and opinion. As if to say, shut up Bott, "if we want your opinion we'll give it to you."


This is perhaps what bothers me most about all of this. He had been saying this stuff for years. Writing on his blog, and apparently repeating in class. But no one cared until it became a PR problem for the church.
_Chap
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Re: Censorship Rampage over Bott

Post by _Chap »

If you say that the CoJCoLDS is setting out to do something disreputable, like this:

It is more of the same deception campaign where some members of the Church believe that honesty is a nuisance.


They will always tape your mouth shut.

Me, I think they are paranoid, and that this kind of behavior is a sign of how desperately vulnerable they feel the CoJCoLDS is on this issue. But is it not possible to avoid giving them an excuse to ban you?
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_harmony
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Re: Censorship Rampage over Bott

Post by _harmony »

Bott is going to disappear, just fall off the radar. If he still has a job next fall, it will be because firing him would open up this pandora's box again.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Shulem
_Emeritus
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Re: Censorship Rampage over Bott

Post by _Shulem »

There are different Mormon churches:

1. The 1830-1880 Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
2. The 1880-1930 Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
3. The 1930-1980 Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
4. The 1980-2030 Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

There are different kinds of Mormon prophets:

1. Joe Smith with head in a hat
2. Brigham Young with many women in bed
3. Spencer Whore Kimball in missionary position only
4. Gordy Hinckley who knows nothing and lies
5. Tommy-boy Monson who quotes poetry and acts like a clown

And there you have it, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: A total joke.

Paul O
A king's name is written in the writing says the dumb Lord
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Censorship Rampage over Bott

Post by _Kevin Graham »

But is it not possible to avoid giving them an excuse to ban you?


That becomes more and more difficult since they seem to be dead set on promoting discussions where their personal opinions appear to win out. This means in other threads they'll rationalize whatever excuse they want to ban someone, and when they don't even have to explain their reasons of even announce that someone has "left the building" via coercion, then this means they can abuse their privilege all the while pretending to be interested in open discussion. DCP clearly doesn't know what he is talking about and what we are seeing is just astounding. Internet Mormons everywhere are coming together and letting the apologetic front determine policy. They're treating these apologetic explanations as doctrine and dismissing the real doctrine as folklore! If you pay close attention to what the Church has said, even in its recent release, there is nothing in it that says Bott was wrong in his speculation. All it says is that it was his speculation that the Church isn't obligated to accept as doctrine. But listening to LDS members whine about this, you'd think the Church fully supports their attacks on Bott. Well, it doesn't.

Dan Peterson, Armand Mauss, Sam Brown, and all other other big name LDS folks who immediately issued an indignant press release about Bott, disgust me right now. Not because they disagree with Bott, but because of the way they're doing it. Calling him racist while at the same time giving a free pass to their own religious leaders.

Maybe Bott should pull a McConkie on them and say, "forget everything I said prior to yesterday on this subject."
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_MrStakhanovite
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Re: Censorship Rampage over Bott

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

Stormy Waters wrote:This is perhaps what bothers me most about all of this. He had been saying this stuff for years. Writing on his blog, and apparently repeating in class. But no one cared until it became a PR problem for the church.


Ditto. This is why the Church bothers me so much, it is just dishonest at its core.
_Fence Sitter
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Re: Censorship Rampage over Bott

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Kevin Graham wrote:Maybe Bott should pull a McConkie on them and say, "forget everything I said prior to yesterday on this subject."


This would be a brilliant move for him. By quoting McConkie on the exact same subject he would make it that much more difficult for the Church to take any action against him. He could excuse his ignorance and place himself with in the Church all in one stroke.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Morley
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Re: Censorship Rampage over Bott

Post by _Morley »

MrStakhanovite wrote:dishonest at its core.


A great sorrow. It's a refusal to recognize that intellectual dishonesty is the worst kind of dishonesty.
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Censorship Rampage over Bott

Post by _Kevin Graham »

From the Australian Broadcasting Company Sunday night television show COMPASS:

COMPASS: So in retrospect was the Church wrong in that [denying blacks the priesthood]?

HINCKLEY: No I don't think it was wrong. It, things, various things happened in different periods. There's a reason for them.

COMPASS: What was the reason for that?

HINCKLEY: I don't know what the reason was.

COMPASS: Is it a problem for the Church that it is still..has a tag of being racist?

HINCKLEY: No, I don't think so. I don't see that anymore.


From Gordon B. Hinckley's interview with Mike Wallace on 60 Minutes:

Mike Wallace: From 1830 to 1978, blacks could not become priests in the Mormon church. Right?

Gordon B. Hinckley: That's correct.

Mike Wallace: Why?

Gordon B. Hinckley: Because the leaders of the church at that time interpreted that doctrine that way. [cut]

Mike Wallace: Church policy had it that blacks had the mark of Cain. Brigham Young said, "Cain slew his brother, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin."

Gordon B. Hinckley: It's behind us. Look, that's behind us. Don't worry about those little flecks of history.

Mike Wallace: Skeptics will suggest, "Well, look, if we're going to expand, we can't keep the blacks out."

Gordon B. Hinckley: Pure speculation. [Laughs.]


Pure speculation?!?

Not according to LeGrand Richards, who was interviewed by Wesley Walters:

WALTERS: On this revelation, of the priesthood to the Negro, I've heard all kinds of stories: I've heard that Joseph Smith appeared; and then I heard another story that Spencer Kimball had, had a concern about this for some time, and simply shared it with the apostles, and they decided that this was the right time to move in that direction. Are any of those stories true, or are they all?

RICHARDS: Well, the last one is pretty true, and I might tell you what provoked it in a way. Down in Brazil, there is so much Negro blood in the population there that it's hard to get leaders that don't have Negro blood in them. We just built a temple down there. It's going to be dedicated in October. All those people with Negro blood in them have been raising the money to build that temple. If we don't change, then they can't even use it. Well, Brother Kimball worried about it, and he prayed a lot about it.

He asked each one of us of the Twelve if we would pray - and we did - that the Lord would give him the inspiration to know what the will of the Lord was. Then he invited each one of us in his office - individually, because you know when you are in a group, you can't always express everything that's in your heart. You're part of the group, you see - so he interviewed each one of us, personally, to see how we felt about it, and he asked us to pray about it. Then he asked each one of us to hand in all the references we had, for, or against that proposal. See, he was thinking favorably toward giving the colored people the priesthood.
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