My DIALOGUE with Dave on the Curse of Cain

[_Daheshist]

I just got finished talking with a 60 year old Mormon from Utah..."Dave". He spent his mission in Brazil, and taught a special discussion as to why blacks could not be ordained or sealed. The discussion was given to missionaries in his mission in 1971. The discussion said that blacks were less valiant in the War in Heaven, and could not hold the priesthood in mortality.


Dave: What do you think the Church is doing by saying that it was never doctrine? I've seen the Deseret News articles?

Darrick: The Church is lying. The Church could apologize, but that would embarrass them, and show Mormons they are not infallible as many Members think.

Dave: Well, no, I don't accept that. The Brethren would never lie to us.

Darrick: Dave, Church leaders have lied, and lied alot, over the past 150 years.

Dave: No, no, I don't believe that. I don't believe you.

Darrick: Whether you believe me or not, what I told you is the truth.

Dave: Let me ask you this, was it ok for the Jews to only give the priesthood to the Levites?

Darrick: Dave, priesthood restriction is one thing, and lying about the past is another. Sure, the Church can give its priesthood to whom it wants to, but lying about the past is not of God!!!

Dave: "I'm hanging up now!" (click....dial tone)

[_TrashcanMan79]

The discussion was given to missionaries in his mission in 1971.

Was this something that was actually prepared and issued to the mission by the Church? Or was it just something prepared by the mission presidency or something?

Either way, I'd love to see this thing see the light of day right about now.

[_Daheshist]

I know that at least "some" missions in Brazil had this special discussion. I don't know if it was a Brazilian mission thing, or it came from the Correlation Committee. Nobody is talking. But here it is:

LINEAGE LESSON Brazil North Mission December, 1970

After confirming the prior commitments with the investigator, continue on with the following dialogue.

We have explained some marvelous teachings of the gospel and of the Church of Jesus Christ. One very important principle of the Church of Jesus Christ is that it is always guided by revelation. Lets read what Christ said about revelation in his church. Read Matthew 16:15-17. According to verse 17, how is it that Peter knew that Christ was the son of God?

-Response-

Yes, Peter received revelation from God. Until that date men said that Christ was John the Baptist, or Jeremiah, or some other prophet. But what did Peter receive that gave him a certainty while others were wrong?

-Response-

Exactly. Revelation is so important that Christ himself explained that his Church would be built on the principle of revelation. Do you want to read verse 18? Do you think that Christ would build His eternal church around a mortal man?

-Response-

A church founded or dependent on Peter or any other man would be the church of Peter or the church of some other man. But whose is the church that Christ organized?

-Response-

In this verse Christ is speaking about something eternal on which he built his church. And this is the same eternal principle mentioned in verse 17. What principle is this?

-Response-

1. The Church of Jesus Christ is built on the rock of revelation. Exactly. Christ explained to his apostles that He built His Church on the rock of revelation. In your opinion, Brother Nunes, what is revelation?

-Response-

We can say, then, that revelation is communication between God and his servants on the earth. And why is revelation so important?

-Response-

Lets read Acts 13:2-3. How were Barnabas and Paul called to the ministry?

-Response-

Lets look at another example of revelation in the primitive church. In the first days of the church the gospel was preached only to the Jews. However, Peter had a dream in which he was ordered to go and preach to the family of the gentiles. This caused some conflicts in the church, but when Peter explained that he had been ordered by God to preach to the gentiles, the Church accepted this new teaching. Why did they accept this teaching?

-Response-

Then, on what principle was the Primitive Church founded and guided?

-Response -

2. All that the Church does and teaches is by revelation. When the Church was restored, who was called by God to receive revelation for the Church?

-Response-

But after the prophet Joseph Smith was martyred, could it be that the Church was to continue without divine guidance?

-Response-

Since that time of Joseph Smith there have always been prophets on the earth. As God said in Amos 3:7, �Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.� Thus, what does God do when he has something to reveal to the Church today?

-Response-

3. Revelation from God for the Church comes through the prophet. I know that today we have a true prophet, and that he is guided by God. Now, in the scriptures we see that Barnabas and Paul were called by revelation to receive the priesthood. Brother Nunes, in your opinion, what is the priesthood?

-Response-

Speaking about the priesthood, Paul said: �And no man taketh this honor unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.� (Heb. 5:4) Lets return and see how Aaron was called. Here in Exodus 28:1 God was speaking about the prophet Moses. Read Exodus 28:1. According to this scripture, how was Aaron called?

-Response-

And still today, Brother Nunes, why do all men have to be called by revelation to receive the priesthood?

-Response-

4. A man must be called by God through revelation to receive the priesthood. As you already know, worth men in the Church after 12 years of age are called to receive the priesthood. And by what principle are they called?

-Response-

If a man was called by inspiration to receive the priesthood, should he accept this call?

-Response-

If you are called by a servant of God to receive the priesthood, will you accept this responsibility and blessing?

-Response-

5. If I am called I will accept the priesthood. Anciently, it was revealed who could receive the priesthood. We already read about Barnabas, Paul, and Aaron. It was also revealed who could not receive the priesthood. Would you like to read in the book of Abraham 1:26-27? [Mormon scripture - not in the Bible] What does verse 27 say about Pharaoh and the priesthood.

-Response-

Exactly, Brother Nunes. Pharaoh was a descendant of people who could not receive the priesthood. Lets examine this lineage to learn its origin. Are you acquainted with the story of Abel and Cain?

-Response-

Lets read this story in the Bible. Read Genesis 4:8-15. Cain and his descendants received a mark that distinguished them from all other peoples. This people, the descendants of Cain, for reasons not completely known to men, do not have the right to the priesthood. For example, it was revealed to Abraham that Pharaoh, being from this so called lineage of Cain, could not receive the priesthood. Brother Nunes, we have seen that Aaron, Barnabas, Paul, and others receive the priesthood because they were called by God by revelation. In the same manner, why have the prophets not given the priesthood to the lineage of Cain?

-Response-

In order to understand the mark put on Cain and to understand how the prophets distinguish this lineage, lets read Moses 7:22. "Moses 7:22 And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them." How was this lineage distinguished from the others?

-Response-

And concerning the priesthood, why was this group or this lineage different?

-Response-

6. God revealed anciently that the lineage of Cain could not receive the priesthood. In order to understand what God revealed about this people today, we need to go to the modern prophets. Do you want to read the underlined part of this pamphlet? Read the following part from the letter of the First Presidency published in the �Priesthood Bulletin.� Vol6. No. 1 - February 1970. �Since the beginning of this dispensation, Joseph Smith and all of the successive presidents of the Church have taught that the Negroes, while spiritual children of a common Father, and descendants of our earthly parents Adam and Eve, still cannot receive the Priesthood, for reasons that we believe are known to God, but which He has not made completely known to men.� What does this say there about the Negroes and the priesthood?

-Response-

Exactly. Negroes that honestly seek the truth and desire to join the church can be baptized. However, why does the Church not confer the Priesthood on them?

-Response-

7. God revealed that Negroes still cannot receive the priesthood. For this reason the priesthood is not actively preached to the lineage of Cain. The prophets have told us to preach the gospel to those that have the right to the priesthood. But lets read what god said about the Negroes in the future. Read the following paragraph from the letter of the First Presidency: �President McKay also said that �One day in the eternal plan of God, the Negro will be given the right to possess the Priesthood.�� What did the prophet say about the Negroes and the priesthood? -Response I know that this is true. And when that time comes, how will we know?

-Response-

8. In the future when it is revealed by God, Negroes will receive the priesthood. Do you accept that teaching that God revealed his will concerning his priesthood to his prophets, Mr. Nunes?

-Response-

Good, I know that this is the truth and that God really guides and directs the Church through modern revelation. Now, Mr. Nunes, do you know if any of your ancestors were Negro or descendants of Negroes?

-Response-

If in the future you discover that one of your ancestors was Negro will you tell your Branch President?

-Response-

If this happened do you think you would remain firm and faithful to the church and your covenants with God?

-Response-

end of lesson

The discussion was given to missionaries in his mission in 1971.

Was this something that was actually prepared and issued to the mission by the Church? Or was it just something prepared by the mission presidency or something?

Either way, I'd love to see this thing see the light of day right about now.

[_Brackite]

I know that at least "some" missions in Brazil had this special discussion. I don't know if it was a Brazilian mission thing, or it came from the Correlation Committee. Nobody is talking. But here it is:

LINEAGE LESSON Brazil North Mission December, 1970

After confirming the prior commitments with the investigator, continue on with the following dialogue.

We have explained some marvelous teachings of the gospel and of the Church of Jesus Christ. One very important principle of the Church of Jesus Christ is that it is always guided by revelation. Lets read what Christ said about revelation in his church. Read Matthew 16:15-17. According to verse 17, how is it that Peter knew that Christ was the son of God?

-Response-

Yes, Peter received revelation from God. Until that date men said that Christ was John the Baptist, or Jeremiah, or some other prophet. But what did Peter receive that gave him a certainty while others were wrong?

-Response-

Exactly. Revelation is so important that Christ himself explained that his Church would be built on the principle of revelation. Do you want to read verse 18? Do you think that Christ would build His eternal church around a mortal man?

-Response-

A church founded or dependent on Peter or any other man would be the church of Peter or the church of some other man. But whose is the church that Christ organized?

-Response-

In this verse Christ is speaking about something eternal on which he built his church. And this is the same eternal principle mentioned in verse 17. What principle is this?

-Response-

1. The Church of Jesus Christ is built on the rock of revelation. Exactly. Christ explained to his apostles that He built His Church on the rock of revelation. In your opinion, Brother Nunes, what is revelation?

-Response-

We can say, then, that revelation is communication between God and his servants on the earth. And why is revelation so important?

-Response-

Lets read Acts 13:2-3. How were Barnabas and Paul called to the ministry?

-Response-

Lets look at another example of revelation in the primitive church. In the first days of the church the gospel was preached only to the Jews. However, Peter had a dream in which he was ordered to go and preach to the family of the gentiles. This caused some conflicts in the church, but when Peter explained that he had been ordered by God to preach to the gentiles, the Church accepted this new teaching. Why did they accept this teaching?

-Response-

Then, on what principle was the Primitive Church founded and guided?

-Response -

2. All that the Church does and teaches is by revelation. When the Church was restored, who was called by God to receive revelation for the Church?

-Response-

But after the prophet Joseph Smith was martyred, could it be that the Church was to continue without divine guidance?

-Response-

Since that time of Joseph Smith there have always been prophets on the earth. As God said in Amos 3:7, �Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.� Thus, what does God do when he has something to reveal to the Church today?

-Response-

3. Revelation from God for the Church comes through the prophet. I know that today we have a true prophet, and that he is guided by God. Now, in the scriptures we see that Barnabas and Paul were called by revelation to receive the priesthood. Brother Nunes, in your opinion, what is the priesthood?

-Response-

Speaking about the priesthood, Paul said: �And no man taketh this honor unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.� (Heb. 5:4) Lets return and see how Aaron was called. Here in Exodus 28:1 God was speaking about the prophet Moses. Read Exodus 28:1. According to this scripture, how was Aaron called?

-Response-

And still today, Brother Nunes, why do all men have to be called by revelation to receive the priesthood?

-Response-

4. A man must be called by God through revelation to receive the priesthood. As you already know, worth men in the Church after 12 years of age are called to receive the priesthood. And by what principle are they called?

-Response-

If a man was called by inspiration to receive the priesthood, should he accept this call?

-Response-

If you are called by a servant of God to receive the priesthood, will you accept this responsibility and blessing?

-Response-

5. If I am called I will accept the priesthood. Anciently, it was revealed who could receive the priesthood. We already read about Barnabas, Paul, and Aaron. It was also revealed who could not receive the priesthood. Would you like to read in the book of Abraham 1:26-27? [Mormon scripture - not in the Bible] What does verse 27 say about Pharaoh and the priesthood.

-Response-

Exactly, Brother Nunes. Pharaoh was a descendant of people who could not receive the priesthood. Lets examine this lineage to learn its origin. Are you acquainted with the story of Abel and Cain?

-Response-

Lets read this story in the Bible. Read Genesis 4:8-15. Cain and his descendants received a mark that distinguished them from all other peoples. This people, the descendants of Cain, for reasons not completely known to men, do not have the right to the priesthood. For example, it was revealed to Abraham that Pharaoh, being from this so called lineage of Cain, could not receive the priesthood. Brother Nunes, we have seen that Aaron, Barnabas, Paul, and others receive the priesthood because they were called by God by revelation. In the same manner, why have the prophets not given the priesthood to the lineage of Cain?

-Response-

In order to understand the mark put on Cain and to understand how the prophets distinguish this lineage, lets read Moses 7:22. "Moses 7:22 And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them." How was this lineage distinguished from the others?

-Response-

And concerning the priesthood, why was this group or this lineage different?

-Response-

6. God revealed anciently that the lineage of Cain could not receive the priesthood. In order to understand what God revealed about this people today, we need to go to the modern prophets. Do you want to read the underlined part of this pamphlet? Read the following part from the letter of the First Presidency published in the �Priesthood Bulletin.� Vol6. No. 1 - February 1970. �Since the beginning of this dispensation, Joseph Smith and all of the successive presidents of the Church have taught that the Negroes, while spiritual children of a common Father, and descendants of our earthly parents Adam and Eve, still cannot receive the Priesthood, for reasons that we believe are known to God, but which He has not made completely known to men.� What does this say there about the Negroes and the priesthood?

-Response-

Exactly. Negroes that honestly seek the truth and desire to join the church can be baptized. However, why does the Church not confer the Priesthood on them?

-Response-

7. God revealed that Negroes still cannot receive the priesthood. For this reason the priesthood is not actively preached to the lineage of Cain. The prophets have told us to preach the gospel to those that have the right to the priesthood. But lets read what god said about the Negroes in the future. Read the following paragraph from the letter of the First Presidency: �President McKay also said that �One day in the eternal plan of God, the Negro will be given the right to possess the Priesthood.�� What did the prophet say about the Negroes and the priesthood? -Response I know that this is true. And when that time comes, how will we know?

-Response-

8. In the future when it is revealed by God, Negroes will receive the priesthood. Do you accept that teaching that God revealed his will concerning his priesthood to his prophets, Mr. Nunes?

-Response-

Good, I know that this is the truth and that God really guides and directs the Church through modern revelation. Now, Mr. Nunes, do you know if any of your ancestors were Negro or descendants of Negroes?

-Response-

If in the future you discover that one of your ancestors was Negro will you tell your Branch President?

-Response-

If this happened do you think you would remain firm and faithful to the church and your covenants with God?

-Response-

end of lesson

I asked about this situation in Brazil with Missionaries before 1978 on a couple of other Mormon Message Boards several years ago. I was never able to get a full answer to the situation there before 1978, until now. Thank You so very much Darrick for providing this important information here!!.