DiscussMormonism.com

in my opinion, an excellent response by Dan to the apologists

http://signaturebooks.com/2012/03/book- ... revisited/

Thanks Joe!

Thanks, Joe! I also posted an announcement on MADD.

Dan Vogel wrote:Thanks, Joe! I also posted an announcement on MADD.

The 2nd account came from what was probably John Whitmer’s final interview before his death. It’s funny how all these witnesses who leave the church keep reaffirming their testimonies on their deathbed. What does that tell you? Anyway, this Q&A was published a few weeks after John’s death.

Q - I am aware that your name is affixed to the testimony in the Book of Mormon that you saw the plates?
A - It is so, and that testimony is true.
Q - Did you handle the plates with your hands?
A - I did so!
Q - Then they were a material substance?
A - Yes, as material as anything can be.
Q - Were they heavy to lift?
A - Yes, and as you know gold is a heavy metal: they were very heavy.
Q - How big were the leaves?
A - So far as I recollect, 8 by 6 or seven inches.
Q - Were the leaves thick?
A - Yes, just so thick, that characters could be engraven on both sides.
Q - How were the leaves joined together?
A - In three rings, each one in the shape of a D with the straight line towards the center.
Q - In what place did you see the plates?
A - In Joseph Smith’s house; he had them there.
Q - Did you see them covered with a cloth?
A - No. He handed them uncovered into our hands, and we turned the leaves sufficient to satisfy us.

http://www.moroni10.com/witnesses/John_Whitmer.html

I don't know Dan, this seems pretty convincing. John saw the plates and handled them.

I agree why me. To discredit the witnesses, all that is going is these "scholars" are revising history to prove that the statements the witnesses subscribed to did not really mean what they said. And since the witnesses are dead, we can't ask for further clarifications. It is a ridiculous tactic, but not unexpected.

As far as the believing Mormon should be concerned, it doesn't matter. You really shouldn't believe the Book of Mormon because of these witnesses anyway. You should believe it because God told you to believe it. And that is the only legitimate test.

Tobin wrote:I agree why me. To discredit the witnesses, all that is going is these "scholars" are revising history to prove that the statements the witnesses subscribed to did not really mean what they said. And since the witnesses are dead, we can't ask for further clarifications. It is a ridiculous tactic, but not unexpected.

As far as the believing Mormon should be concerned, it doesn't matter. You really shouldn't believe the Book of Mormon because of these witnesses anyway. You should believe it because God told you to believe it. And that is the only legitimate test.

Witnesses who give contradictory statements aren't really very reliable witnesses, are they? And regardless of whether they saw the plates or handled them under a cloth, they were in no position to know whether or not the Book of Mormon was true and the plates authentic.

Buffalo wrote:Witnesses who give contradictory statements aren't really very reliable witnesses, are they? And regardless of whether they saw the plates or handled them under a cloth, they were in no position to know whether or not the Book of Mormon was true and the plates authentic.

These men had ample opportunity to give statements refuting what they said. And yes, I know the new excuse is people just didn't do that. Oh really?

And don't worry Buffalo, you'll be a witness too. It is just a matter of time.

Tobin wrote:These men had ample opportunity to give statements refuting what they said. And yes, I know the new excuse is people just didn't do that. Oh really?

Do you give the same credibility to witnesses of alien abductions?

Tobin wrote:And don't worry Buffalo, you'll be a witness too. It is just a matter of time.

Not bloody likely.

Buffalo wrote:

Tobin wrote:These men had ample opportunity to give statements refuting what they said. And yes, I know the new excuse is people just didn't do that. Oh really?

Do you give the same credibility to witnesses of alien abductions?

You can see God any time you want to Buffalo, if you humble yourself and truly seek him. Then you can know as surely as these gentlemen did that the Book of Mormon is true.

Buffalo wrote:

Tobin wrote:And don't worry Buffalo, you'll be a witness too. It is just a matter of time.

Not bloody likely.

Oh, I don't know if it will happen while you are alive, but you will see God and know this really happened.

Tobin wrote:You can see God any time you want to Buffalo.

I agree. With a little help from