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Here is an interesting tidbit about the Book of Abraham and denying the blacks the priesthood. We know that Joseph Smith 'translated' the first four lines of hieratic characters from the papyri to the left of Fac#1 for Abraham 1-2:18. You can look at MS#1 in the Kirtland Egyptian Papers and see how they lined up all the verses from Abr 1-2:18 with those characters except for where there is lacuna in the papyri. When he encountered this missing section Joseph Smith simply made up characters and a translation. Which verses are those that he made up? Abr 1:23-28 were 'translated' from the missing area just left of Fac#1. I wonder how many LDS realize that the theological foundation for denying the blacks the priesthood is based on a section of the papyri that was missing even in Joseph Smith's time?

Fence Sitter wrote:Here is an interesting tidbit about the Book of Abraham and denying the blacks the priesthood. We know that Joseph Smith 'translated' the first four lines of hieratic characters from the papyri to the left of Fac#1 for Abraham 1-2:18. You can look at MS#1 in the Kirtland Egyptian Papers and see how they lined up all the verses from Abr 1-2:18 with those characters except for where there is lacuna in the papyri. When he encountered this missing section Joseph Smith simply made up characters and a translation. Which verses are those that he made up? Abr 1:23-28 were 'translated' from the missing area just left of Fac#1. I wonder how many LDS realize that the theological foundation for denying the blacks the priesthood is based on a section of the papyri that was missing even in Joseph Smith's time?

The Book of Abraham. The one thing that really shows Joseph was making it up. He should have stuck with how he made up the BoMoses, but then he needed to impress and had for once a real ancient document.

The Book of Abraham was a 'translation too far'. It probably shows a combination of the pressure JSJr was under in light of the Kirtland defections from "the Church" (needing to show god was still 'talking' to JSJr), and the hubris from having not yet been caught in the Book of Mormon 'translation' fraud.

I find it interesting that he was able to put the Book of Abraham on a shelf from late 1835, the year that he obtained the papyrus and 'translations' were made, until 1842 when the 'translation' resumed and was finished, and the Book of Abraham was published in the Times and Seasons. After having shelved it for so long, what prompted him in late 1841, early 1842 to dust off and finish it?

The Book of Abraham. The one thing that really shows Joseph was making it up.

A stunning admission which invalidates all anti Mormon arguments other than those related to the Book of Abraham. The Book of Abraham issue itself can't be solved without the missing papyri. Thanks for making our work much easier. Of course we've realize this many years before you statement.

sock puppet wrote:
I find it interesting that he was able to put the Book of Abraham on a shelf from late 1835, the year that he obtained the papyrus and 'translations' were made, until 1842 when the 'translation' resumed and was finished, and the Book of Abraham was published in the Times and Seasons. After having shelved it for so long, what prompted him in late 1841, early 1842 to dust off and finish it?

I think the work he did on the papyri in Kirtland was an attempt to really translate Egyptian. He spent a lot of time just to get the first chapter and a half out of the papyri. Then he was driven out of Kirtland and I don't believe he had much time to do anything in Missouri. When he finally had time to turn back to the papyri in Nauvoo I think he decided to stop any direct attempt at translation and just reverted back to expanding on passages from the Bible and other available literature. He also directed the reconstructions and printing of the facsimiles. Initially in Nauvoo I think he was focused of developing property. When he decided he didn't want to be a realtor or hotel owner he went back to the Book of Abraham.

Fence Sitter,

As you mentioned in your OP, "You can look at MS#1 in the Kirtland Egyptian Papers and see how they lined up all the verses from Abr 1-2:18 with those characters except for where there is lacuna in the papyri."

Of course, Egyptology soon thereafter developed to the point of debunking the translations as being a linguistic one from ancient Egyptian hieratics to the modern English text we have and know as the Book of Abraham.

In a subsequent post, you write "I think the work he did on the papyri in Kirtland was an attempt to really translate Egyptian. He spent a lot of time just to get the first chapter and a half out of the papyri."

If one is earnest in making an attempt to 'really translate' when what one is doing is not a real translation, wouldn't he have run into problems fairly quickly as matters 'lined up' rather incongruently? His dissection of hieratic characters in to graphemes and then claiming to assign to them English words/phrases would have soon become problematic as repeated graphemes from different hieratic characters, in going from left to right, line to line, would have resulted in English gibberish if JSJr 'lined them up'. So I find it difficult to believe that he was attempted a 'translation' that was anything other than just his pulling all this out of his ass, and he knew it at the time he was doing it.

sock puppet wrote:Fence Sitter,

As you mentioned in your OP, "You can look at MS#1 in the Kirtland Egyptian Papers and see how they lined up all the verses from Abr 1-2:18 with those characters except for where there is lacuna in the papyri."

Of course, Egyptology soon thereafter developed to the point of debunking the translations as being a linguistic one from ancient Egyptian hieratics to the modern English text we have and know as the Book of Abraham.

In a subsequent post, you write "I think the work he did on the papyri in Kirtland was an attempt to really translate Egyptian. He spent a lot of time just to get the first chapter and a half out of the papyri."

If one is earnest in making an attempt to 'really translate' when what one is doing is not a real translation, wouldn't he have run into problems fairly quickly as matters 'lined up' rather incongruently? His dissection of hieratic characters in to graphemes and then claiming to assign to them English words/phrases would have soon become problematic as repeated graphemes from different hieratic characters, in going from left to right, line to line, would have resulted in English gibberish if JSJr 'lined them up'. So I find it difficult to believe that he was attempted a 'translation' that was anything other than just his pulling all this out of his ass, and he knew it at the time he was doing it.

It wouldn't be the first time someone would wrongly believe he was actually translating Egyptian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_Seyffarth

bcspace wrote:

The Book of Abraham. The one thing that really shows Joseph was making it up.

A stunning admission which invalidates all anti Mormon arguments other than those related to the Book of Abraham.

It's not anti to recognize Joseph was making it up. It was disappointing as well. You might try dealing with the critical arguments.

The Book of Abraham issue itself can't be solved without the missing papyri.

It can, and has. The three facsimiles are all present in the Book of Abraham. The KEP shows that the papyri we do have was used for the Book of Abraham. The missing papyri theory is so bad it can't even convince many of the apologists, which is why they have to come up with it being a catalyst.

Joseph Smith translated the Book of Abraham through divines means by the power of the Holy Ghost. Modern Egyptologists have proven that Joseph's translations are scientifically correct based on true Egyptian art, language, and history.

Egyptologists have proven that Joseph Smith's Explanations of "Shulem, one of the king's principal waiters, as represented by the characters above his hand" is absolutely correct and Mormonism is like a shining religious star in a a dark world. Thank you, Joseph Smith, the prophet, for bringing Egyptology back to mankind!

Hail to the prophet! Hail to the man who communed with Jehovah!

Joseph Smith correctly translated: "Olimlah, a slave belonging to the prince" -- all of this has been confirmed by Egyptologists from all of the various universities, worldwide. Mormonism has been proven true.

You anti-mormons are nothing but liars trying to thwart the kingdom of God and in so doing risk your own salvation. Repent -- you bastards!!

The Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 are true and correct. Modern Egyptology has confirmed this to be so. Mormonism has been shown to be a marvelous work and wonder. We have Joseph Smith the translator to thank!



Paul O