Witnesses and the Power of Images at Sic et Non

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_Kishkumen
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Witnesses and the Power of Images at Sic et Non

Post by _Kishkumen »

New comments on the influence of art on history and the eight witnesses at Dr. Peterson's "Sic et Non" blog.

Daniel Peterson wrote:But now, finally, an anecdote relating to the painting of the Eight Witnesses to the Book of Mormon with which I began this post:

Years ago, I was exchanging emails with a certain ex-Mormon, a colleague and ally and (certainly in this respect) a fellow-traveler of the much more accomplished Dan Vogel. Like Vogel, he maintains that the experience of the Eight Witnesses was visionary and subjective, not real. By contrast, I argue that the evidence overwhelming demonstrates their encounter with the plates to have been mundane, matter-of-fact, and lacking any significant element of the supernatural.

They went out into a grove of trees, I said, at about one o'clock on an ordinary afternoon, and there were the plates, sitting on a tree stump.

"There was no tree stump," he countered.

"Yes there was," I said. somewhat surprised at his insistence on a very peripheral issue.

"Show me the evidence," he demanded.

I told him that I certainly would, but suggested a bit cheekily that I was entirely willing to allow him the absence of a tree stump if he would grant me the existence of the plates.

He declined my offer.

I began to look for an account of the Eight Witness story including a tree stump. Such an account would, I thought, be very easy to find. I thought I remembered reading at least one. But time passed and I found none.

So I called Richard Lloyd Anderson, a good friend and, by many light years, the foremost authority (ever) on the Witnesses to the Book of Mormon.

Not a problem, he said. He'd get right back to me with a good reference to a tree stump featuring in the experience of the Eight Witnesses.

After a few days, he called me and acknowledged that he couldn't actually find such a reference. And, as we pondered the situation, we decided that we had been influenced by the bit of Church illustration that appears at the top of this entry. There may well have been a tree stump, but no account mentions it, and we simply assumed it.

Artistic representations do absolutely affect our imaginations and expectations, and we need to be wary about allowing them to mislead us.

The sources are emphatic, however, that there were plates, and it still seems to me beyond reasonable dispute that the experience of the Eight Witnesses, even unaccompanied by that tree stump, was prosaic, objectively real, and entirely empirical.


I find this entry absolutely fascinating. It prompts me to wonder whether the problem ends with the stump, or only just begins there. To what extent do people come to add substance to events of the past simply because they have seen images depicting them?

More to the point, how did the men who were shown the plates know what it was that they were looking at? Just like Dr. Peterson populating his historical imagination with a stump for which no evidence exists in history, Joseph Smith told these men that an angel had entrusted him with ancient plates of gold that belonged to an ancient Hebraic civilization that once lived in America.

Joseph had experience telling such stories about ancient treasures hidden in the earth. He probably knew a thing or two about providing just enough physical evidence of the old pot or the chest to convince others that they had actually seen the container in which the treasure was kept.

In an age before archaeology really had its methodological footing and counterfeit relics were easily passed off as the real thing, even on the truly learned, would the inexpert locals, the family, friends, and acquaintances of Joseph Smith, have known to tell a genuine antiquity from a fake?

Of course, maybe Joseph Smith, the Palmyra treasure seer, was entrusted with plates by an angel named Moroni or Nephi. I can't say that he was not. On the other hand, perhaps Joseph Smith was the pious fraud that Dan Vogel says he was.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Themis
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Re: Witnesses and the Power of Images at Sic et Non

Post by _Themis »

Kishkumen wrote:
I find this entry absolutely fascinating. It prompts me to wonder whether the problem ends with the stump, or only just begins there. To what extent do people come to add substance to events of the past simply because they have seen images depicting them?



Dan unwittingly opens up a can of worms on this one, and why one should be very skeptical of the church's claims.
42
_SteelHead
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Re: Witnesses and the Power of Images at Sic et Non

Post by _SteelHead »

should've turned that question around............ "If you can't show the existence of the tree stump, will you concede that the witness of the plates was spiritual?"
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
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_Kishkumen
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Re: Witnesses and the Power of Images at Sic et Non

Post by _Kishkumen »

SteelHead wrote:should've turned that question around............ "If you can't show the existence of the tree stump, will you concede that the witness of the plates was spiritual?"


That's the question, no? But of course the conversation never goes there. A collection of bumpkins say they saw Big Foot, the aliens, or Ole Nessie--in fact they'd swear to it, and who are we to gainsay their experience? I bet some of them even saw and smelled Big Foot's offal.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Witnesses and the Power of Images at Sic et Non

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

I agree, Reverend: it was a remarkable post, and I admired its candor. Perhaps Dr. Peterson can launch a new venture: "Mormon Scholars Admit to Being Dupes."
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_sock puppet
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Re: Witnesses and the Power of Images at Sic et Non

Post by _sock puppet »

Kishkumen wrote:New comments on the influence of art on history and the eight witnesses at Dr. Peterson's "Sic et Non" blog.

Daniel Peterson wrote:But now, finally, an anecdote relating to the painting of the Eight Witnesses to the Book of Mormon with which I began this post:

Years ago, I was exchanging emails with a certain ex-Mormon, a colleague and ally and (certainly in this respect) a fellow-traveler of the much more accomplished Dan Vogel. Like Vogel, he maintains that the experience of the Eight Witnesses was visionary and subjective, not real. By contrast, I argue that the evidence overwhelming demonstrates their encounter with the plates to have been mundane, matter-of-fact, and lacking any significant element of the supernatural.

They went out into a grove of trees, I said, at about one o'clock on an ordinary afternoon, and there were the plates, sitting on a tree stump.

"There was no tree stump," he countered.

"Yes there was," I said. somewhat surprised at his insistence on a very peripheral issue.

"Show me the evidence," he demanded.

I told him that I certainly would, but suggested a bit cheekily that I was entirely willing to allow him the absence of a tree stump if he would grant me the existence of the plates.

He declined my offer.

I began to look for an account of the Eight Witness story including a tree stump. Such an account would, I thought, be very easy to find. I thought I remembered reading at least one. But time passed and I found none.

So I called Richard Lloyd Anderson, a good friend and, by many light years, the foremost authority (ever) on the Witnesses to the Book of Mormon.

Not a problem, he said. He'd get right back to me with a good reference to a tree stump featuring in the experience of the Eight Witnesses.

After a few days, he called me and acknowledged that he couldn't actually find such a reference. And, as we pondered the situation, we decided that we had been influenced by the bit of Church illustration that appears at the top of this entry. There may well have been a tree stump, but no account mentions it, and we simply assumed it.

Artistic representations do absolutely affect our imaginations and expectations, and we need to be wary about allowing them to mislead us.

The sources are emphatic, however, that there were plates, and it still seems to me beyond reasonable dispute that the experience of the Eight Witnesses, even unaccompanied by that tree stump, was prosaic, objectively real, and entirely empirical.


I find this entry absolutely fascinating. It prompts me to wonder whether the problem ends with the stump, or only just begins there. To what extent do people come to add substance to events of the past simply because they have seen images depicting them?

More to the point, how did the men who were shown the plates know what it was that they were looking at? Just like Dr. Peterson populating his historical imagination with a stump for which no evidence exists in history, Joseph Smith told these men that an angel had entrusted him with ancient plates of gold that belonged to an ancient Hebraic civilization that once lived in America.

Joseph had experience telling such stories about ancient treasures hidden in the earth. He probably knew a thing or two about providing just enough physical evidence of the old pot or the chest to convince others that they had actually seen the container in which the treasure was kept.

In an age before archaeology really had its methodological footing and counterfeit relics were easily passed off as the real thing, even on the truly learned, would the inexpert locals, the family, friends, and acquaintances of Joseph Smith, have known to tell a genuine antiquity from a fake?

Of course, maybe Joseph Smith, the Palmyra treasure seer, was entrusted with plates by an angel named Moroni or Nephi. I can't say that he was not. On the other hand, perhaps Joseph Smith was the pious fraud that Dan Vogel says he was.

I would like to know who the ex-Mo was that confidently knew better than DCP and Richard Lloyd "by many light years, the foremost authority (ever) on the Witnesses to the Book of Mormon" Anderson that there is no evidence for a tree stump, that the tree stump was drawn by artistic license. If he or she knew that about the tree stump, what details does that person know about the witnesses' claims of plates?
_Juggler Vain
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Re: Witnesses and the Power of Images at Sic et Non

Post by _Juggler Vain »

Daniel Peterson wrote:Artistic representations do absolutely affect our imaginations and expectations, and we need to be wary about allowing them to mislead us.

Wow, this is highly relevant to a post I just made about Greg Smith and his terrible defense of misleading LDS Church art. One of Greg's main (and questionable) points is that art that misleads people as to facts may be more true than factually accurate art. So LDS Church art relating to the Golden Plates is a lie told in the service of a higher truth, and is therefore perfectly fine, and even better than some art that shows what was actually happening.

I wonder, now, if Daniel Peterson would agree.

-JV
_Yong Xi
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Re: Witnesses and the Power of Images at Sic et Non

Post by _Yong Xi »

This is the first time I have ever heard DCP even remotely admit to being wrong about something. Is this what exile does to a person?
_Kishkumen
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Re: Witnesses and the Power of Images at Sic et Non

Post by _Kishkumen »

Juggler Vain wrote:Wow, this is highly relevant to a post I just made about Greg Smith and his terrible defense of misleading LDS Church art. One of Greg's main (and questionable) points is that art that misleads people as to facts may be more true than factually accurate art. So LDS Church art relating to the Golden Plates is a lie told in the service of a higher truth, and is therefore perfectly fine, and even better than some art that shows what was actually happening.

I wonder, now, if Daniel Peterson would agree.

-JV


You know, on one level I understand what Greg Smith is saying. On another, I think it does matter that Joseph Smith lied repeatedly about his practice of polygyny, and that the LDS Church has long promoted the fiction of a monogamous Joseph in art. I also think it does matter that the Church has adopted an approach to art that favors realism over symbolism, and then misrepresents the history. It may not have been intentional, but it had certain consequences. Among those consequences is the lost faith of members when they discover the stone in the hat.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with creating shocking images of Joseph Smith and his plural wives or with his head buried in a hat. None of the images I have seen is pornographic or off-putting, at least as far as I can see. The truth is that it is only offensive to those who don't know the history and have deified Joseph Smith as a fourth member of the Godhead. Unfortunately for your critics, there is no doctrinal support for worshiping anyone other than the Father in the name of the Son and by the power of the Holy Spirit. So, those who want to get their panties in a bunch over your art need to take a chill pill, in my opinion.

Time to grow up folks. Davy Crocket didn't wrestle a bear when he was only three, George Washington and the cherry tree is a fiction, and Joseph Smith slept with his young wives. Now, if you are going to worship something, choose carefully. Obviously, those who have a bug up their rear ends over these images have not.

Oh, by the way, Greg, if you are reading, I would be interested in seeing a "revisionist" depiction of the Last Supper, and you are free to try your hand at it. I hope it doesn't damage your tender spirit. I know it won't damage mine.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Juggler Vain
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Re: Witnesses and the Power of Images at Sic et Non

Post by _Juggler Vain »

Kishkumen wrote:You know, on one level I understand what Greg Smith is saying.

I think I do too. There really are different frequencies on which visual art can communicate (e.g., literal, metaphorical, emotional, etc.), and each of these frequencies can carry some message of "truth" (or Truth) for a viewer. If the emotional "truth" is there, I can see why somebody might not care how "true" the metaphorical or literal frequencies are.

I think Greg is pointing out that Joseph Smith tracing his finger across a shiny golden page, with a furrowed brow, bathed in the warm light of a glowing lamp, is an expression of "truth" on an emotional or even a metaphorical frequency for believing Mormons. A depiction of the translation that shows Joseph's face buried in a hat, despite having something closer to "truth" on a literal frequency, could (and, in my case, apparently, does) fail to express "truth" on an emotional frequency for believers.

Kishkumen wrote:On another, I think it does matter that Joseph Smith lied repeatedly about his practice of polygyny, and that the LDS Church has long promoted the fiction of a monogamous Joseph in art. I also think it does matter that the Church has adopted an approach to art that favors realism over symbolism, and then misrepresents the history. It may not have been intentional, but it had certain consequences. Among those consequences is the lost faith of members when they discover the stone in the hat.

Right. The context really matters. To me, when the art is being used to establish facts about physical reality, the "literal" frequency becomes a threshold measure for the "truth" value of most other frequencies. When the Church is using nearly photo-realistic art to teach seminary students an affirmative lie about physical reality (e.g., Joseph Smith, with his scribe Oliver Cowdery, translated the Book of Mormon directly from a 200 lb stack of golden plates in plain view on the little table between them), all of the "truth" frequencies are corrupted for those students.

Only people who already know the real story can get metaphorical and emotional truth from the Church's inaccurate art, but the Church is squeamish about telling the real story. Much like parents who can't bring themselves to have the "sex talk" with their kids, the Church likes to assume that its members will learn the real stories somewhere else, on their own. And they often do, in humiliating fashion, way to late in life.

Kishkumen wrote:Personally, I see nothing wrong with creating shocking images of Joseph Smith and his plural wives or with his head buried in a hat. None of the images I have seen is pornographic or off-putting, at least as far as I can see.

I feel the same way. I've still held off (for the most part) on crossing into R-rated imagery; with a little imagination, you can get pretty dark without straying far from the historical record.

Kishkumen wrote:The truth is that it is only offensive to those who don't know the history and have deified Joseph Smith as a fourth member of the Godhead.

To put it another way, the truth is that it is only offensive to those who trusted the Church. Then, if it bothers them enough to investigate, they are surprised to learn that their trust was misplaced, and they have to deal with that.

-JV
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