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In the ongoing interest in John Dehlin and a salient thread about him at the MDD board, Bernard Gui posted what I think is probably the most insightful perspective regarding his overall style and approach one could wish for.

Although I have not perused Dehlin's stuff extensively, my initial acquaintance with his Mormonstories website would tend to confirm Bob Crockett's general analysis.

Dehlin comes off as a nice guy on some occasions, but as pointed and agenda driven on others. The general passive-aggressive style of his approach is, while avoiding the hot-headed or intellectually paternalistic approach of many other apostate critics (I'm thinking Hutchinson or Metcalf), still without doubt, a criticism of the Church who's primary purpose is to criticize and delegitimate central aspects of Church doctrine and teaching.

Despite his overall low key and well mannered approach, such as it is, he is, indeed, a "vegetarian wolf" in sheep's clothing, and while clothing himself in niceness is laudable for its restraint, on an emotional level, the project itself - subverting and weakening the testimony and faith of other members and poisoning the well for potential converts, is still the same.

Gui posted the following very relevant General Authority Quotes:

Ezra T. Benson said,
“The Church,” says President McKay, “is little, if at all, injured by persecution and calumnies from ignorant, misinformed, or malicious enemies.” (The Instructor, February 1956, p. 33.)

"It is from within the Church that the greatest hindrance comes. And so, it seems, it has been. Now the question arises, will we stick with the kingdom and can we avoid being deceived? Certainly this is an important question, for the Lord has said that in the last days the devil will “rage in the hearts of . . . men,” (2 Nephi 28:20) and if it were possible he shall “deceive the very elect.” (See Joseph Smith 1:5-37.)

“The adversary,” said Brigham Young, “presents his principles and arguments in the most approved style, and in the most winning tone, attended with the most graceful attitudes; and he is very careful to ingratiate himself into the favour of the powerful and influential of mankind, uniting himself with popular parties, floating into offices of trust and emolument by pandering to popular feeling, though it should seriously wrong and oppress the innocent. Such characters put on the manners of an angel, appearing as nigh like angels of light as they possibly can, to deceive the innocent and the unwary. The good which they do, they do it to bring to pass an evil purpose upon the good and honest followers of Jesus Christ.” (JD 11, 238-239.)

"Those of us who think “. . . all is well in Zion . . .” (2 Nephi 28:21) in spite of Book of Mormon warning might ponder the words of Heber C. Kimball when he said, “Yes, we think we are secure here in the chambers of these everlasting hills . . . but I want to say to you, my brethren, the time is coming when we will be mixed up in these now peaceful valleys to that extent that it will be difficult to tell the face of a Saint from the face of an enemy against the people of God. Then is the time to look out for the great sieve, for there will be a great sifting time, and many will fall. For I say unto you there is a test, a Test, a TEST coming.” (Heber C. Kimball, 1856. Quoted by J. Golden Kimball, Conference Report, October 1930, pp. 59-60.)"

Ezra T. Benson said,
“The Church,” says President McKay, “is little, if at all, injured by persecution and calumnies from ignorant, misinformed, or malicious enemies.” (The Instructor, February 1956, p. 33.)

As long as the apologist (and the church) continue to believe that those of us who dedicated enormous amounts of our time, talents and resources to the church are ignorant, misinformed or malicious; people who are questioning will continue to run, not walk, away from the church.

Droopy wrote: intellectually paternalistic approach

Yes, board readers, this really happened.

A political and religious fanatic, who has never expressed an original thought of his own, but merely acts as a rabid cheerleader for what he perceives to be the party line, is complaining about an "intellectually paternalistic approach" to issues in Mormonism.

And he approvingly cited Ezra Taft Benson, Brigham Young, and Heber C. Kimball in doing so.

Let's see how the irony meter is doing:

As long as the apologist (and the church) continue to believe that those of us who dedicated enormous amounts of our time, talents and resources to the church are ignorant, misinformed or malicious; people who are questioning will continue to run, not walk, away from the church.

Apostasy from the Lord's true church and Kingdom, less apostasy from anything else at all, is a spiritual condition comprising spiritual dynamics and spiritual patterns, of which there are only a few (parable of the sower, again) and common to all human beings, at some level.

Misinformation, confusion, intellectual shallowness, and even a kind of ignorance (where one wouldn't expect it - in degreed intellectuals with a history of Church activity) of LDS doctrine and, in more than a few cases, maliciousness in efforts to evangelize others to the critical/apostate perspective, has never been lacking among this subset of LDS.

No one, to my knowledge has ever painted all apostate LDS as malicious (although many, each in their own way, have been).

If you go back and look carefully at the parable of the sower, however, you will see that, regardless of whether one is malicious or does all he does in good faith, and regardless of whether one is well mannered and civil, or hostile and demagogic, apostasy from the gospel occurs because of core aspects within one's own soul that refuse to conform and align themselves with the standards and requirements of the gospel and allow real conversion to take place.

No matter how much time, effort, and talent was dedicated to the Church in the past, it is endurance to the end, that really matters, and apostasy is ultimately a choice to reject greater light and knowledge and remain at a certain level while that light and knowledge is available and further progress possible.

For many - a great many - within the intellectual/academic world, in which there are particular pressures and influences unique to a life of intellectual study and reflection, and especially in a professional, academic sense, who eventually find themselves on the periphery or outside the perimeters of the Church, the fundamental dynamics in question were stated by Nephi:

And it came to pass that I beheld others pressing forward, and they came forth and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press forward through the mist of darkness, clinging to the rod of iron, even until they did come forth and partake of the fruit of the tree.

And after they had partaken of the fruit of the tree they did cast their eyes about as if they were ashamed.

And I also cast my eyes round about, and beheld, on the other side of the river of water, a great and spacious building; and it stood as it were in the air, high above the earth.

And it was filled with people, both old and young, both male and female; and their manner of dress was exceedingly fine; and they were in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers towards those who had come at and were partaking of the fruit.

And after they had tasted of the fruit they were ashamed, because of those that were scoffing at them; and they fell away into forbidden paths and were lost.

Darth J wrote:

Droopy wrote: intellectually paternalistic approach

Yes, board readers, this really happened.

A political and religious fanatic, who has never expressed an original thought of his own, but merely acts as a rabid cheerleader for what he perceives to be the party line, is complaining about an "intellectually paternalistic approach" to issues in Mormonism.

And he approvingly cited Ezra Taft Benson, Brigham Young, and Heber C. Kimball in doing so.

Let's see how the irony meter is doing:

Don't tell anybody, but this is actually a photo of Darth's last CAT scan.

Little, I would suspect, could have survived.

Apostasy from Lord Xenu's true church and Kingdom, less apostasy from anything else at all, is a spiritual condition comprising spiritual dynamics and spiritual patterns, of which there are only a few (parable of the sower, again) and common to all human beings, at some level.

Misinformation, confusion, intellectual shallowness, and even a kind of ignorance (where one wouldn't expect it - in degreed intellectuals with a history of Church activity) of Scientologist doctrine and, in more than a few cases, maliciousness in efforts to evangelize others to the critical/apostate perspective, has never been lacking among this subset of Scientology.

No one, to my knowledge has ever painted all apostate Scientologists as malicious (although many, each in their own way, have been).

If you go back and look carefully at the parable of the sower, however, you will see that, regardless of whether one is malicious or does all he does in good faith, and regardless of whether one is well mannered and civil, or hostile and demagogic, apostasy from the gospel occurs because of core aspects within one's own soul that refuse to conform and align themselves with the standards and requirements of the gospel and allow real conversion to take place.

No matter how much time, effort, and talent was dedicated to to the Church in the past, it is endurance to the end, that really matters, and apostasy is ultimately a choice to reject greater light and knowledge and remain at a certain level while that light and knowledge is available and further progress possible.

For many - a great many - within the intellectual/academic world, in which there are particular pressures and influences unique to a life of intellectual study and reflection, and especially in a professional, academic sense, who eventually find themselves on the periphery or outside the perimeters of the Church, the fundamental dynamics were stated by Xenu:

And it came to pass that I beheld others pressing forward, and they came forth and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press forward through the mist of darkness, clinging to the rod of iron, even until they did come forth and partake of the fruit of the tree.

And after they had partaken of the fruit of the tree they did cast their eyes about as if they were ashamed.

And I also cast my eyes round about, and beheld, on the other side of the river of water, a great and spacious building; and it stood as it were in the air, high above the earth.

And it was filled with people, both old and young, both male and female; and their manner of dress was exceedingly fine; and they were in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers towards those who had come at and were partaking of the fruit.

And after they had tasted of the fruit they were ashamed, because of those that were scoffing at them; and they fell away into forbidden paths and were lost.

Droopy wrote:Although I have not perused Dehlin's stuff extensively...

As usual, you never let a bit of ignorance get in the way of sharing your misinformed opinion.

H.

I cannot imagine what it is like to be in the same ward as Droopy. How incredible would fast and testimony meeting be, especially around the 4th of July!

And it came to pass that I beheld others pressing forward, and they came forth and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press forward through the mist of darkness, clinging to the rod of iron, even until they did come forth and partake of the fruit of the tree.

And after they had partaken of the fruit of the tree they did cast their eyes about as if they were ashamed.

And I also cast my eyes round about, and beheld, on the other side of the river of water, a great and spacious building; and it stood as it were in the air, high above the earth.

And it was filled with people, both old and young, both male and female; and their manner of dress was exceedingly fine; and they were in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers towards those who had come at and were partaking of the fruit.

And after they had tasted of the fruit they were ashamed, because of those that were scoffing at them; and they fell away into forbidden paths and were lost.

Sounds similar to Joseph Smith Snr's dream Droopy (I know this is 'old hat' for most people) as recounted by Lucy Mack Smith.

In 1811, we moved from Royalton, Vermont, to the town of Lebanon, New Hampshire. Soon after arriving here, my husband received...[a] vision, which I will relate:

"...I (Referring to Joseph Smith Sr.)was traveling in an open, desolate field, which appeared to be very barren...My guide, who was by my side, as before, said, 'This is the desolate world... Traveling a short distance farther, I came to a narrow path. This path I entered, and, when I had traveled a little way in it, I beheld a beautiful stream of water, which ran from the east to the west....I could see a rope running along the bank of it.

...beyond me was a low, but very pleasant valley, in which stood a tree such as I had never seen before...it bore a kind of fruit, in shape much like a chestnut bur, and as white as snow, or, if possible whiter...I drew near and began to eat of it, and I found it delicious beyond description. As I was eating, I said in my heart, 'I can not eat this alone, I must bring my wife and children, that they may partake with me'.

...I beheld a spacious building standing opposite the valley which we were in, and it appeared to reach to the very heavens. It was full of doors and windows, and they were filled with people, who were very finely dressed. When these people observed us in the low valley, under the tree, they pointed the finger of scorn at us, and treated us with all manner of disrespect and contempt. But their contumely we utterly disregarded.

I presently turned to my guide, and inquired of him the meaning of the fruit that was so delicious. He told me it was the pure love of God...He then commanded me to go and bring the rest of my children...Upon raising my eyes, I saw two small children, standing some distance off. I immediately went to them, and brought them to the tree; upon which they commenced eating with the rest, and we all rejoiced together.

...I asked my guide what was the meaning of the spacious building which I saw. He replied, 'It is Babylon, it is Babylon, and it must fall. The people in the doors and windows are the inhabitants thereof, who scorn and despise the Saints of God because of their humility.' I soon awoke, clapping my hands together for joy."

http://www.centerplace.org/history/misc/jsp.htm#14



From the Hebrew Matthew, Jesus is quoted as saying this:

"Because everyone who says to me, 'Lord' will not enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven will enter into the kingdom of heaven." Hebrew Matthew 7:21

And to further give a different perspective on things

Mark 10:17 -

And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

Hmmmm. I wonder what it really takes to be on the straight and narrow? Are only LDS able to be on it as portrayed in Joseph Snr and Lehi's dream?

Or is it about a way of life that includes not committing adultery, not killing, not stealing,not lying, not defrauding. And if that is indeed the case, then how well did Joseph live up to these things, if as the Beatitudes say, that by 'their fruits we would know them'.

Just some thoughts.

Droopy wrote:

Darth J wrote:
Let's see how the irony meter is doing:

Don't tell anybody, but this is actually a photo of Darth's last CAT scan.

Little, I would suspect, could have survived.

Of course you have time to come up with these "your mom!" type of comebacks, Droopy. It's not like your mind is occupied with other things.

You have religious and political authority figures telling you what to think, so that's covered.

You don't bother to read things people have written before giving a rambling, prolix opinion, which saves time that would otherwise be wasted in learning something about the subject you are purporting to address. Plus, you only have one opinion: anyone who fails to affirm your fundamentalist, reactionary interpretation of Mormonism is a leftist and part of the 60's counterculture movement (way to strike while the iron is hot). And instead of coming up with evidence or a coherent argument, you just string together hackneyed religious right snarl words. "Secular" seems to be among your favorite of said snarl words---but given that the truth claims of the LDS Church are poorly equipped to address objective reality, I can see why you think it is self-explanatory that "secular" is a bad thing.

Anyway, I believe your were pontificating on the evils of "intellectual paternalism." Since this is one subject in which you irrefutably know whereof you speak, please continue.